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Episode 50

The Human Lie Detector | Alan Saquella

Checking the suitability of candidates in the security sector using technology.

Criminal background checks are increasingly failing to predict success or even integrity in the workplace. So what options do we have to enhance the selection process and make sure you have the right people in positions to do the right job, as well as better predictors of integrity and success on the job.

Today’s guest is Alan Saquella, professor of corporate security, security investigations and interrogation at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University- College of Business, Security and Intelligence.

More about Alan:

Alan Saquella is a Certified Protection Professional and Certified Polygraph Examiner. He is an enthusiastic influential security and investigations leader with more than 25 years of security and investigations experience in corporate and public organizations. Alan took early retirement after 16 years as the Security and Investigations Director at Cox Communications.

Alan is now an Assistant Professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University- College of Business, Security and Intelligence. He has written numerous papers and articles on business security, employee safety, and internal fraud prevention and has been interviewed by several media entities on the same and related topics.  Alan provides advisement on subjects of security and safety training and fraud prevention services to multiple organizations and entities.

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More about the Circuit:

The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

If you liked this podcast, we have an accompanying weekly newsletter called 'On the Circuit' where we take a deeper dive into the wider industry. Opt in here >


The Circuit team is:

  • Elijah Shaw
  • Jon Moss
  • Shaun West
  • Phelim Rowe


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Transcript
Alan Saquella:

every single one of the the that we investigated terminated and

Alan Saquella:

or prosecuted passed the background.

Alan Saquella:

check.

Alan Saquella:

So what we have found is it's not a good, reliable, indicator of

Alan Saquella:

success for integrity on the job.

Phelim:

How to become a human lie detector?

Phelim:

No, I'm kidding.

Phelim:

But actually am I today?

Phelim:

We're going to be talking with Alan Saquella.

Phelim:

Head of investigations at Cox now at Embry-Riddle university and

Phelim:

previously with a career in government, he's got the skillset to look at

Phelim:

interrogations and lie detector tests.

Phelim:

He's taken it to the corporate world.

Phelim:

And today we're going to be looking at its application in the round to

Phelim:

EAP, including wider topics like background checks, but also the

Phelim:

skillset involved and whether or not we can replicate it through technology.

Phelim:

I'm here with the Elijah Shaw.

Phelim:

Is this exciting in this Crumbo limbo period.

Elijah:

First of all, I need to know what Crumbo limbo means.

Elijah:

What.

Phelim:

It's the period in between Christmas and new year.

Elijah:

Ah, okay.

Elijah:

I'm a little bit off on that one.

Elijah:

Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I think the wonderful thing about the circuit

Elijah:

podcast is we, we bring all these different views and opinions and

Elijah:

perspectives from all around the world.

Elijah:

And particularly when we get these subject matter experts that, you know,

Elijah:

to operate in, in an area that, you know, maybe we don't spend a lot of time in.

Elijah:

And so when you think about, you know, lie detection, when you think about the.

Elijah:

You, uh, that have to come into doing a successful background check, whether

Elijah:

that's vetting a potential staff, whether that's betting the potential client, you

Elijah:

know, all of these things come into play.

Elijah:

And so anything that makes us better in that, but it's

Elijah:

ultimately going to make us better.

Phelim:

I like it.

Phelim:

And do you think, you know, there's often been a complaint that some

Phelim:

clients simply want EAP and they don't know what they're buying, but equally

Phelim:

some EPA teams might rush the vetting process to meet the needs, which are

Phelim:

very, very short term requirements.

Elijah:

100%.

Elijah:

And I think part of that is, is just the lack of knowledge.

Elijah:

Uh, unfortunately we see when that goes wrong and then it hits the

Elijah:

headlines and then people go, oh, why didn't they do their due diligence?

Elijah:

Um, you know, we, we are a brotherhood in the sense that if someone is referred

Elijah:

to us, we put a lot of stock into that.

Elijah:

However, there are some boxes that we really need to check, uh, strategically

Elijah:

in order to, you know, cover on that.

Phelim:

And one of the things that I know Alan is a big proponent

Phelim:

of is, and this might sound harsh, but I clean a rap sheet.

Phelim:

Doesn't mean they're not offending.

Phelim:

They just means they haven't been called.

Phelim:

Now that, that, that is guilty until proven innocent.

Phelim:

I know that's a bit of a different thing, but it is an interesting way

Phelim:

to look at it that in, unless you do some sort of personality profiling

Phelim:

or intent profile, I don't know, through light detection, uh, or other

Phelim:

means it's going to be a bit tricky.

Phelim:

Um, obviously this is, this is minority report and it's not the

Phelim:

first time we've mentioned minority report on the, on the Circuit podcast.

Phelim:

I do know that, but I think we're onto something this first, if period,

Phelim:

do you think people are going to do a due diligence whilst, you know,

Phelim:

they've had this bit of downtime?

Phelim:

Yeah.

Elijah:

One would hope so.

Elijah:

And maybe, you know, after listening to this episode, listening to him

Elijah:

talk and getting his perspective, you go, oh, well, you know what?

Elijah:

I wasn't putting as much emphasis as I should have been on these areas here.

Elijah:

And again, I circled back to the fact that we see the horror stories.

Elijah:

We'll read the paper about, Hey, this person did this.

Elijah:

Or, um, this person did this and that.

Elijah:

And they go, you know, we didn't.

Elijah:

However, if you dig into that person's history, maybe there were some red

Elijah:

flags, maybe there were some pre indicators that would have let us know.

Elijah:

And so anything that gives us additional insights to, to help ourselves be

Elijah:

more effective as a team or, uh, help us make better judgment decisions.

Elijah:

I think as a plus,

Phelim:

Uh, plus indeed.

Phelim:

And let's bring the spirits up.

Phelim:

I know it's in between Christmas and new year,

Elijah:

wait, wait, what did you call it again?

Phelim:

crim bow limber.

Phelim:

It's that limbo period.

Phelim:

No more IPS, SBE, no more, uh, Christmas and, and only a little

Phelim:

time til new year, we're going to have to lift people's spirits.

Phelim:

Keep the party going with interrogation and the effects for the EAP community.

Phelim:

Let's say from Alan great friend of the industry looking forward to it.

Phelim:

Checking the suitability of candidates in a security sector using

Phelim:

technology today, we're here with Alan Saquella, professor of corporate

Phelim:

security, security, investigations, and interrogation at Embry riddle,

Phelim:

aeronautical university, college of, uh, security business and intelligence.

Phelim:

What a pleasure to have you on board?

Alan Saquella:

Very well, thanks for having me.

Phelim:

Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a very timely time to have you on

Phelim:

actually, because a lot of people are talking about, uh, robot select

Phelim:

tours, uh, for, you know, CB sifting.

Phelim:

And I, and I think throughout this process, it'd be nice to dispel some,

Phelim:

some myths and, and look at some big advantages, but, but right off the

Phelim:

bat, let's do our three quickfire questions, um, to sort of get us going.

Phelim:

What is this technology seeking to solve for what problem exists

Phelim:

within the industry that, that you're trying to solve right now?

Alan Saquella:

Well Pelham, that's a great question.

Alan Saquella:

So I'm going to to you back.

Alan Saquella:

So if you think back to the old selection processes for, uh, candidates,

Alan Saquella:

you know, historically, um, there's a background check there's criminal

Alan Saquella:

background check, reference checks, verification of education, certifications,

Alan Saquella:

licenses, and a lot of those are good, but we're, we're a lot of.

Alan Saquella:

of the Issues com is that a predicting success in the workplace?

Alan Saquella:

So uh, criminal background check and I'll get into it more deeply is,

Alan Saquella:

uh, is failing to predict success or even integrity in the workplace.

Alan Saquella:

So we're looking for ways to enhance the selection process and make

Alan Saquella:

sure you have the right people in positions to do the right job, as

Alan Saquella:

well as, uh, better predictors of integrity and success on the job.

Phelim:

Okay.

Phelim:

Okay.

Phelim:

I can see that.

Phelim:

That'd be, that'd be very, very handy, especially with an a, with

Phelim:

a, with a glut of, uh, applications.

Phelim:

Um, what about you?

Phelim:

Uh, what is

Phelim:

your passion for this come

Phelim:

from?

Alan Saquella:

My passion comes from my history.

Alan Saquella:

So interestingly enough, I started my career off of law enforcement was

Alan Saquella:

a polygraph examiner, and I did a lot of polygraphs white attention.

Alan Saquella:

If you will, on the preemployment selection side, of course, that's

Alan Saquella:

a great investigative tool.

Alan Saquella:

It's able to pull out a lot of information from your candidates.

Alan Saquella:

Of course, about the polygraph protection act of 1989 eliminated use for most

Alan Saquella:

corporate private sector Africa.

Alan Saquella:

So the evolution of background checks had to change because that was eliminated,

Alan Saquella:

uh, criminal background checks.

Alan Saquella:

I've always been part of of that.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, the issue I found is that, my career

Alan Saquella:

and with all the internal investigations that were conducted by numbers, my chain,

Alan Saquella:

as well as myself, every single one of the the that we investigated terminated

Alan Saquella:

and or prosecuted passed the background.

Alan Saquella:

check.

Alan Saquella:

They pass the criminal background check as well as all the other checks.

Alan Saquella:

So what we have found is it's not a good, reliable, um, indicator of

Alan Saquella:

success for integrity on the job.

Alan Saquella:

And so what is there, what else is out there?

Alan Saquella:

Be a better predictor nets.

Alan Saquella:

That's been my passion for decades looking for something else,

Alan Saquella:

something that will help them better prepare us and also select those

Alan Saquella:

candidates are not only going to be.

Alan Saquella:

But also have high integrity.

Phelim:

I like it.

Phelim:

So what then considering our audiences, you know, as part corporate security

Phelim:

part, executive protection, um, uh, you know, generally physical security

Phelim:

specialist, um, what should the completely uninitiated better know about this?

Phelim:

You know, needs to check backgrounds.

Phelim:

Um, is it just that, uh, you know, fresh skins simply haven't created,

Phelim:

you know, done anything wrong yet?

Phelim:

What should they really better understand if they, if they know

Phelim:

very little about this topic?

Alan Saquella:

Well, it's important to know that.

Alan Saquella:

employees that come to work, the traditional background check is

Alan Saquella:

not a predictor of behaviors.

Alan Saquella:

You know, if you look at some of the publications by some of the most,

Alan Saquella:

uh, um, steamed psychologists, like BF Skinner, Albert Ellis and Walter

Alan Saquella:

Michael, we know that past behavior is a a predictor of future behavior?

Alan Saquella:

Unfortunately, the selection tools that we use are not good predictors.

Alan Saquella:

And so, because we're using history and records to predict

Alan Saquella:

future behavior, those don't work.

Alan Saquella:

What you have to do is look at what are the behaviors from the

Alan Saquella:

past, because those behaviors will be replicated in the the future.

Alan Saquella:

We generally continue those behaviors.

Alan Saquella:

What's also important to know that most people that have committed crimes

Alan Saquella:

that are convicted, that is not the first time that committed a crime.

Alan Saquella:

There might be a hundred crimes are committed before they got caught.

Alan Saquella:

So if a person is not caught, they're hired, those behaviors

Alan Saquella:

are going to continue.

Alan Saquella:

The background check will never identify those texts.

Alan Saquella:

So we have to be sensitive of that and looking for better solutions.

Phelim:

Okay.

Phelim:

So.

Phelim:

What sort of behaviors are we talking about that we, we

Phelim:

want to, uh, to pick up on?

Phelim:

I mean, uh, some people sort of talk about a criminal mindset, uh, you

Phelim:

know, uh, a quite a simple switch in, in someone's brain where instead of

Phelim:

working hard, uh, progressing and then earning some money and then achieving

Phelim:

the purchase of a big, big, big

Phelim:

thing they think, hang on, I'll just take

Phelim:

it.

Phelim:

Is it that simple or, or, or other other behaviors we're

Phelim:

looking for?

Alan Saquella:

Oh, there's quite a few behaviors we're looking for.

Alan Saquella:

So.

Alan Saquella:

example, I'll give you an example.

Alan Saquella:

So in an integrity type situation where you're, where you're screening and I

Alan Saquella:

hate to use the word integrity tests, this is not really an integrity test

Alan Saquella:

is more of a behavioral assessment.

Alan Saquella:

Is if you ask someone a question, whether it be in person.

Alan Saquella:

Um, computer or on a test, if you will, um, what should happen to

Alan Saquella:

a person that takes a thousand dollars from their employer?

Alan Saquella:

And there are five choices and of course the right answer is they should

Alan Saquella:

be terminated, um, or something similar to that instead of there'll

Alan Saquella:

be some options like, well, it it depends this was her first time or

Alan Saquella:

not, uh, B uh, uh, anything Over a thousand dollars would be a problem.

Alan Saquella:

So what you're looking for is behavior so that the candidate would align with.

Alan Saquella:

So we know that psychologists known through years of study that a person

Alan Saquella:

who has a propensity or has done these things now, her past Tends to

Alan Saquella:

align with wanting to be easier on the, on the culprit and cause that's

Alan Saquella:

how they would want to be treated if they were caught stealing from nobody.

Alan Saquella:

So the behaviors have to be pulled out through some sort of an assessment,

Alan Saquella:

uh, which, uh, uh, that we'll be talking about a little bit later.

Alan Saquella:

So And those types things are now available and they're also available

Alan Saquella:

as the technology for screening.

Phelim:

But surely all a company needs is one

Phelim:

Allen.

Phelim:

So Keller surely that's all they need or are we facing a deluge of seed CVS

Phelim:

to sift through?

Alan Saquella:

Uh, no, there's a day Lewis.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, Well, look, what's going on a great resignation right now.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, because of COVID we have the United States, 4 million people have quit

Alan Saquella:

their jobs without another company.

Alan Saquella:

And sooner or later they're going to have to start looking for employment.

Alan Saquella:

And those resumes are going to be going out.

Alan Saquella:

with.

Alan Saquella:

So forth.

Alan Saquella:

And so we had a lot of positions open across the country.

Alan Saquella:

We have a lot of people that will be looking for those positions.

Alan Saquella:

So we're going to have to sift through those, those candidates.

Alan Saquella:

There's several screens that the candidate goes through.

Alan Saquella:

Like the applicant tracking system, that's that automated system

Alan Saquella:

that's going to project, let's say resumes based on keywords.

Alan Saquella:

If it doesn't match the jobs perfect.

Alan Saquella:

That's your first screen.

Alan Saquella:

And then after that, you make it through the first round of recruiters.

Alan Saquella:

And then of course you go through a series of things.

Alan Saquella:

The background check is usually last and a reason this last one is it's,

Alan Saquella:

uh, it's both, uh, because of cost, but also because of most recent regulations.

Alan Saquella:

So federally and in our federal laws required the removal.

Alan Saquella:

of.

Alan Saquella:

Asking they were convicted of a crime that has to come at the offer.

Alan Saquella:

So it's contingent based on an awful, we didn't do a background check on you, but

Alan Saquella:

here's your offer if you've cleared a background or supplier or there's another

Alan Saquella:

law that's going through the state several states have it's called ban buh-bye.

Alan Saquella:

ban the box is you can't ask them on the application if they've been

Alan Saquella:

convicted of a crime, so that following the federal law, whereas you will get

Alan Saquella:

an offer contingent on passing the background check, and there's several

Alan Saquella:

states that are also restricting.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, how far back you can check what types of crimes you can reject a person for?

Alan Saquella:

In some cases, there's at some of the states, there's a presumption

Alan Saquella:

that if a person has been, uh, a person has been rehabilitated after

Alan Saquella:

five years, that's preposterous.

Alan Saquella:

You know, so behaviors generally don't change if they're in rank and a person has

Alan Saquella:

committed a crime, a crime five years ago.

Alan Saquella:

And again, we know that they were convicted five years ago.

Alan Saquella:

How many did I commit prior the pavers already there?

Alan Saquella:

So is that really going to be a good selection criteria?

Alan Saquella:

And so we, again, us, the reason for this technology and bounce back.

Phelim:

So, so, so how is this technology then created?

Phelim:

Because you have an illustrious career, you have a very deep

Phelim:

understanding of interrogation.

Phelim:

How can

Phelim:

that be replicated, duplicated, you know, scaled

Phelim:

out in, in, in technology.

Alan Saquella:

Ah, that's a great question.

Alan Saquella:

So what, uh, the company that I will talk about a little bit in the technology

Alan Saquella:

later on has done what they did is they took the best of the best out there.

Alan Saquella:

They work with psychologists.

Alan Saquella:

They developed an automated process of screening by looking at what we've used

Alan Saquella:

traditionally in the selection process.

Alan Saquella:

There's a lot of different types of selection tools that were used at the

Alan Saquella:

wording of the questions and looked at the different types of things

Alan Saquella:

we want to screen for, for example, workplace violence, embezzlement

Alan Saquella:

fraud, sabotage, uh, sexual harassment, just a whole host of things.

Alan Saquella:

And so as I developed a questions, what, what we know historically from research is

Alan Saquella:

that, and of course, examples is that, um, The behaviors again, solidified passes.

Alan Saquella:

And we're looking to select, we also know that when a person is asked a

Alan Saquella:

question, if someone who plans online, again, this goes back to my polygraph

Alan Saquella:

days when a person lies about something that's concerning to them, such as

Alan Saquella:

telling them about the.

Alan Saquella:

I may be rejected, so I better lie.

Alan Saquella:

So just by that thought, what happens?

Alan Saquella:

You have a delay in your response.

Alan Saquella:

So we know that the person that takes longer to respond to our question,

Alan Saquella:

a person that hovers with their mouse on yes or no, or checks, no.

Alan Saquella:

Then go to.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, if somebody that we need to take a closer look here.

Alan Saquella:

So the process is you using algorithms artificial intelligence

Alan Saquella:

to look at the behaviors and the movements of the individual.

Alan Saquella:

And also in some cases, the eye movement.

Alan Saquella:

Cause you're

Alan Saquella:

looking at the faces.

Alan Saquella:

And of course, uh, we know history, the screening, there, all this

Alan Saquella:

technology, both verbal nonverbal behaviors are different for those

Alan Saquella:

who intend to be deceptive versus those planned to be truthful.

Alan Saquella:

So what, what the process then does that lead them down?

Alan Saquella:

A path of questions are tailored to that.

Alan Saquella:

So if a person has not answer slower, they're going to get a

Alan Saquella:

different follow-up question.

Alan Saquella:

It's going to lead.

Alan Saquella:

If they made a timeout and a little note come up and say, I noticed it

Alan Saquella:

took longer than normal and to, uh,

Alan Saquella:

to, uh, uh, select an answer.

Alan Saquella:

Um, we're going to rephrase it.

Alan Saquella:

Please be truthful when you answer to this question.

Alan Saquella:

Again, this is all based

Alan Saquella:

on studies that we were trying to convince them to be truthful.

Alan Saquella:

So we're looking for self admissions as well because self admissions and

Alan Saquella:

self-disclosure again, is getting at the true behavior of the past.

Phelim:

And so let's

Phelim:

think of the end game, uh, you know, the goal that we have in

Phelim:

using such technology it's to find,

Phelim:

not the ideal candidate, because ideally we will have found the

Phelim:

ideal candidate by this stage,

Phelim:

but we want to

Phelim:

find out, have they hidden anything.

Phelim:

We want to find out the app to their attitude rather than the aptitude.

Phelim:

Um,

Phelim:

can we then confront them

Phelim:

with a score based on.

Phelim:

Telemetrics from a automated system.

Phelim:

How can we confront them?

Phelim:

Because surely we'll end up with highly

Phelim:

qualified candidates being rejected.

Phelim:

And there'll be simply told that the computer said no.

Phelim:

Or is it more

Phelim:

complex

Phelim:

than that

Alan Saquella:

Yeah, actually, what happens is at the end of these types of

Alan Saquella:

surveys and there's three types, there's a preemployment screening survey, which

Alan Saquella:

is used for that purpose and screening.

Alan Saquella:

There is a specific, um, tool that's used for, let's say, identifying criminal

Alan Saquella:

activity within the organization specific.

Alan Saquella:

Specific crime more.

Alan Saquella:

If a company wants to just see the overall temperament attitude of the

Alan Saquella:

workforce, they can do what they're called some sort of random screening.

Alan Saquella:

So in each case, what happens is a person gets categorized in a green, yellow, or.

Alan Saquella:

Um, a bucket if they, uh, if they fall into the wreck, um, that's like

Alan Saquella:

in a preemployment setting, that would be an automatic rejection.

Alan Saquella:

So that again is based on a lot of valid and reliable studies with this technique.

Alan Saquella:

We know that that person has a high propensity of repeating past behavior

Alan Saquella:

and in some K-12 and all cases, if they if they show up red, just because

Alan Saquella:

they made admissions during the survey, they admitted to some crimes.

Alan Saquella:

So for example, one of the questions, maybe during your employment, what

Alan Saquella:

is the most amount of money you took?

Alan Saquella:

It did not pull off.

Alan Saquella:

on.

Alan Saquella:

Well, and they give you five choices.

Alan Saquella:

One is zero.

Alan Saquella:

The rest are different dollar amounts.

Alan Saquella:

If, uh, if in incremental, the person says I took a thousand dollars

Alan Saquella:

cash, that's a self admission and there's a, here's all the questions

Alan Saquella:

related to workplace violence.

Alan Saquella:

Have you ever punched somebody to work?

Alan Saquella:

You ever, you know, whatever different choices, again, The The

Alan Saquella:

self admission shows that there's some problems with that behavior.

Alan Saquella:

And that's not somebody you want it for.

Alan Saquella:

Now, those who fall into yellow are the ones that will have follow-up.

Alan Saquella:

And so they would be contacted by the HR organization and or whoever's doing the

Alan Saquella:

screening to get some additional follow-up questions that might categorize them.

Alan Saquella:

This yellow green means are hireable.

Alan Saquella:

In a

Alan Saquella:

a preemployment center, in an investigation, investigatory type

Alan Saquella:

setting, they're going to still fall in one of those categories,

Alan Saquella:

The investigators, anybody use the reds do a followup in-person interview

Alan Saquella:

may lead into an interrogation because they might've made some admissions

Alan Saquella:

specific to the crime at hand.

Alan Saquella:

And yellow may mean they might not have been involved in the crime, but they have

Alan Saquella:

information about it or they witnessed it and they know who is doing it.

Alan Saquella:

So again, that may also.

Alan Saquella:

Require an in-person interview.

Alan Saquella:

So the technology is a tool.

Alan Saquella:

It's like anything it's like cameras, you know, you have cameras that have now video

Alan Saquella:

analytics and also facial recognition.

Alan Saquella:

They give us better and clearer picture, but we also know that

Alan Saquella:

depending on the angle of the camera, you don't always see everything.

Alan Saquella:

So there's still going to have to be some human intervention and follow up to

Alan Saquella:

validate what what's being interpreted.

Phelim:

And so I'd be interested.

Phelim:

I know you said that in 1989

Phelim:

polygraphs were, um, less, uh, desired, shall we say?

Phelim:

Um, uh, but, but, but how does this

Phelim:

technology hold up against that in your opinion?

Phelim:

Not, not, not depending if those who have discounted photographs,

Phelim:

but, but in your opinion,

Phelim:

how, how, how does it compare.

Alan Saquella:

Well, that's a, that's a very good question.

Alan Saquella:

Um, so.

Alan Saquella:

Let me give you a little history about polar.

Alan Saquella:

So polygraph is basically a tool that records what's going on inside your

Alan Saquella:

body, heart rate, blood pressure,

Alan Saquella:

go back galvanic skin response, which is perspiration of

Alan Saquella:

executives as well as respiration.

Alan Saquella:

So it's based on the, premise that weren't, for some personalized, it's

Alan Saquella:

something threatening to them, they have an autonomic nervous system response.

Alan Saquella:

And so with that as a flight or fight reaction, your body prepared.

Alan Saquella:

Ron and phone.

Alan Saquella:

and so we can't control that in a polygraph settings.

Alan Saquella:

We ask one question, which is the stimulus.

Alan Saquella:

If you shoot Johnny Jones, if he shot John talons, he's going to have it on an opp

Alan Saquella:

nervous system fight or flight reaction.

Alan Saquella:

We're all going to see blood

Alan Saquella:

pressure, respiration, sweating.

Alan Saquella:

Um, activity responses.

Alan Saquella:

Um, and so it's very, very effective when it's used by a very well skilled, trained

Alan Saquella:

polygraph San Francisco, but the examiner has to raise the questions and being

Alan Saquella:

a a polygraph, in San Snapchat asking questions and determining truth or not.

Alan Saquella:

We're looking for changes in a person's normal physiology to the question.

Alan Saquella:

And of course the response to show up on the chart.

Alan Saquella:

And then we compare that to a control.

Alan Saquella:

question.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, so I know it probably contusions are weighed over most people's heads.

Alan Saquella:

I mean, the polygraph itself is also an investigative

Alan Saquella:

tool.

Alan Saquella:

It's not the end.

Alan Saquella:

All it does have some significance and reliability depending on

Alan Saquella:

a type of exam and also the skills of the polygraph

Alan Saquella:

examiner.

Alan Saquella:

polygraph, as it takes a lot of time, a lot of resources, money to screen.

Alan Saquella:

If you're gonna do a crimp on a screenings.

Alan Saquella:

So here's the differences you're getting to your question.

Alan Saquella:

Oh, the guy from may take a print on polygraph to take two hours for a

Alan Saquella:

low-level position and maybe a half a day finding not a law enforcement polygraph

Alan Saquella:

screening in some cases, a full day.

Alan Saquella:

So high security level screening,

Alan Saquella:

this technology expedites the process.

Alan Saquella:

You could have a person go through it.

Alan Saquella:

You don't have a good idea about whether you want to hire somebody

Alan Saquella:

within just a few minutes.

Alan Saquella:

The whole survey can take less than 45 minutes and there's no prep time.

Alan Saquella:

It's simple as clicking on a link

Alan Saquella:

and then answering the questions.

Alan Saquella:

So reliability is very good.

Alan Saquella:

Of course, backs that up as well.

Alan Saquella:

We have to have other tools that, like I said, the polygraph protection act chasm.

Alan Saquella:

Limited to had and polygraph and appointment setting

Alan Saquella:

with the exception of drug

Alan Saquella:

manufacturers, security folks has to be very specific crime pers.

Alan Saquella:

And so because of the restrictions most employers have gone away

Alan Saquella:

So they've been looking from two minutes, but again, to answer your

Alan Saquella:

question, I like this new technology.

Alan Saquella:

I'm still certified as a polygraph examiner.

Alan Saquella:

I still did some photographs and presentations,

Alan Saquella:

but it's a lot of work and really, I don't see the application of it.

Alan Saquella:

Yeah, again, We have to come up with something and I think this new technology.

Phelim:

Okay, but one thing over here, at least there is a complaint, not about

Phelim:

the lack of background checking in.

Phelim:

You know, not, uh, people's behaviors and people's truthfulness and people's

Phelim:

character, but there seems to be a complaint about a lack of any

Phelim:

check, especially in some of

Phelim:

the less formal, uh, settings.

Phelim:

So corporations, I can imagine they have a process, a structure in HR department,

Phelim:

but w w w with some of the executive protection, uh, community.

Phelim:

Uh, working for ultra

Phelim:

high net worth and family offices and private offices.

Phelim:

Sometimes there is a complaint that they don't even want to

Phelim:

do a background check at all.

Phelim:

They just want a service.

Phelim:

Like they want an Uber and they, and they don't, they don't look into

Phelim:

what they're, what they're buying, I suppose, by that I'm sort of.

Phelim:

Do you see a distinct divide in

Phelim:

the corporate world where there's compliance issues and maybe

Phelim:

the more private world who yes, there are compliance issues, but

Phelim:

they might, they might shy away from looking under the hood.

Phelim:

Um, is that an urban myth?

Phelim:

Is it, is it real?

Phelim:

I just be

Phelim:

interested for your

Phelim:

thoughts.

Alan Saquella:

That's a very big concern.

Alan Saquella:

And so when I try to test some of this stuff with my previous employer,

Alan Saquella:

they were concerned that we would be projecting too many people.

Alan Saquella:

They would be making it through the screening process.

Alan Saquella:

So you instead decide not to do a background check, right?

Alan Saquella:

And this particular person doing this job committed crime, where's the,

Alan Saquella:

where's the liability, where's the issue.

Alan Saquella:

I mean, you have a lot more issues later on.

Alan Saquella:

I'll give you a great extent, uh, where not doing the right check and

Alan Saquella:

can lead to some significant problems.

Alan Saquella:

So we had a technician that was working for us in my previous

Alan Saquella:

one I was doing an installation

Alan Saquella:

in a customer's home.

Alan Saquella:

Um,

Alan Saquella:

So friended the kid that lived there, once parents started dealing with

Alan Saquella:

drugs or suspect, he would regularly go back to this technician in

Alan Saquella:

that making buttons change.

Alan Saquella:

Ultimately the, uh, individual, uh, technician was not getting

Alan Saquella:

paid for the per the first.

Alan Saquella:

And resulted in the.

Alan Saquella:

homicide took kill him.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, you can imagine, wow.

Alan Saquella:

It cost us to settle there for a while.

Alan Saquella:

Yeah.

Alan Saquella:

And So when we look back, when she

Alan Saquella:

goes back, how did this person get hired?

Alan Saquella:

Well, in that case somehow or another, he didn't go through it back check.

Alan Saquella:

So similar to what you're saying, if you just want to to kind of believe it's not

Alan Saquella:

an issue, let's not look at it because one would want to hire this person or

Alan Saquella:

hurdle for whatever the motivation is.

Alan Saquella:

You're leaving yourself wide open and there's gotta be some screenings.

Alan Saquella:

So.

Alan Saquella:

So.

Alan Saquella:

Yes.

Alan Saquella:

I understand.

Alan Saquella:

Regional background checks, employment verification, education

Alan Saquella:

checks, checking for licensing, fingerprint checks, all that.

Alan Saquella:

Stuff's very, very costly.

Alan Saquella:

By the time you go through the whole process, what I'm saying

Alan Saquella:

is there are some tools out

Alan Saquella:

there similar to what I'm speaking of.

Alan Saquella:

Is that can automate.

Alan Saquella:

And of course also do the background or do the assessment very quickly with

Alan Saquella:

high Bolivian pliability assessment.

Alan Saquella:

tech.

Alan Saquella:

So

Alan Saquella:

at a

Alan Saquella:

a much lower cost, I don't know, let's say doing all of those things.

Alan Saquella:

So I think they may just not be aware of the tools that.

Alan Saquella:

He said, I speak about this technology since forever and stuff,

Alan Saquella:

access there's other countries like Israel, develop it and use it.

Alan Saquella:

Do a great, good job.

Alan Saquella:

We're just starting to see it here.

Phelim:

And I guess maybe a more procedural thing.

Phelim:

Um, if, if I'm a big corporation, then I have a compliance department,

Phelim:

I've got my legal counsel.

Phelim:

I know about data

Phelim:

protection and all of that.

Phelim:

What if I'm a smaller company and I want to do this, um,

Phelim:

What should I think about in terms of who has, what data, where does it go?

Phelim:

How does it, how is it held?

Phelim:

How is it

Phelim:

handled?

Phelim:

Um, I mean,

Phelim:

of course each state has different privacy law and data protection thing.

Phelim:

I know, I know what you can't generalize, but, but what, what considerations should

Phelim:

the smaller company, because bear in mind, a lot of our listeners are from the.

Phelim:

Uh, private security EAP world.

Phelim:

What should they consider?

Phelim:

Where did the answers go?

Phelim:

If for want of a better

Phelim:

word?

Alan Saquella:

You know, well, that's a great question as well.

Alan Saquella:

Think about all these companies big and small today, use a third

Alan Saquella:

party to run background checks.

Alan Saquella:

Most of it, it's not done in internal,

Alan Saquella:

so you have to have obviously, um, so, um,

Alan Saquella:

show you some

Alan Saquella:

place, uh, as part of the contracts that you're signing with these

Alan Saquella:

companies that are doing this stuff for you, uh, it is protected.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, VM just like would be in these types of assessments, the information,

Alan Saquella:

this particular on top of that, it goes back to the employer so

Alan Saquella:

that the company doesn't hold it.

Alan Saquella:

They don't pretend it's going to be retained by a smaller

Alan Saquella:

company, large company.

Alan Saquella:

So but I mean, even if they don't want to retain it, of course

Alan Saquella:

it's going to be destroyed.

Alan Saquella:

So it's just.

Alan Saquella:

a matter of What policies are.

Alan Saquella:

They should certainly counsel,

Alan Saquella:

uh, someone earlier the department or find someone externally as part of the

Alan Saquella:

agreement to use and start technologies.

Alan Saquella:

Just like any type of background check.

Alan Saquella:

You got to check that date.

Phelim:

And how, how does this compare to personality tests?

Phelim:

Because many people have been through some sort of HR process where

Phelim:

they've said, right, we want our team to get on a little bit better.

Phelim:

Let's, let's send you through Myers, Briggs.

Phelim:

Um, and, uh, and, and, you know, there are, there are other, there are

Phelim:

other things to do with color or emotional intelligence.

Phelim:

Um, and, and I think there's a Goldman's EEQ test or something like that, but,

Phelim:

um, how does this compare to that?

Phelim:

I guess at the end of the day, we want to

Phelim:

find out undesirable traits and maybe Myers-Briggs, it's not

Phelim:

about desirable, undesirable.

Phelim:

It's literally about

Phelim:

let's understand how an introvert will, you know, get the best

Phelim:

out of their work experience

Phelim:

and and let's understand how someone that

Phelim:

judges more than perceives and blah, blah,

Phelim:

blah,

Phelim:

you know?

Phelim:

Um, but, but, but how,

Phelim:

how, how does this compare with

Phelim:

that

Alan Saquella:

Well, you know, it's interesting.

Alan Saquella:

There's so many assessments out there and we used to use them at my last

Alan Saquella:

company in a company before that it's really what you're trying to get at.

Alan Saquella:

Most of these assessments that you're speaking of are very good

Alan Saquella:

at looking at how we've worked together, leadership capabilities.

Alan Saquella:

And again, they're going to be used and they have a great deal of success as well.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, they compare in a way that they're very reliable and of course the mountains,

Alan Saquella:

uh, where they differ is that this is getting at the undesirable behaviors

Alan Saquella:

that you don't want in a workplace specific to those types of things.

Alan Saquella:

For screening for such as violence, theft, sabotage behaviors.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, nobody wants it.

Alan Saquella:

So if you can screen these people out in advance as they go through these

Alan Saquella:

other assessments, or we going to to serve a bee or a to developing and

Alan Saquella:

becoming a reliable, good working.

Phelim:

Okay.

Phelim:

Now that's, that's fair enough to assess.

Phelim:

That's actually very clear.

Phelim:

I actually, as I was asking the question, I was suddenly thinking,

Phelim:

oh yeah, we're looking at working better together versus criminality.

Phelim:

It's a little bit, it's a little bit different.

Phelim:

Um, but, but

Phelim:

but, but also one of the things, you know, that the EAP community is big.

Phelim:

Uh, more skills.

Phelim:

They love it.

Phelim:

They love more skills.

Phelim:

I don't know what it is.

Phelim:

It's just, um, they, they they're continually improving themselves.

Phelim:

Um, maybe, maybe some of their backgrounds, um, mean that they're

Phelim:

particularly good at learning.

Phelim:

I don't know.

Phelim:

Um, I'm not trying to blow smoke at our community that

Phelim:

they love developing themselves.

Phelim:

So

Phelim:

aside from the technology, looking at you and your career in investigations,

Phelim:

W what should they do if they wanted to start to start to bring some

Phelim:

of that skillset into their, into

Phelim:

their wheelhouse, how can they

Phelim:

start?

Alan Saquella:

No, preemployment implements priests,

Alan Saquella:

obviously I think once you have identified the right candidates and you

Alan Saquella:

bring them on board, a lot of that, the skills development has to occur once.

Alan Saquella:

Hertz.

Alan Saquella:

And say, you know, we're seeing it and education as well.

Alan Saquella:

I worked for a private university.

Alan Saquella:

And what we're, what we're hearing from employers

Alan Saquella:

is we want to experience, we want certifications, but wants skills.

Alan Saquella:

And so I'm going to to give you just an illustration.

Alan Saquella:

So I was talking to a friend of mine as a chair of our public equity,

Alan Saquella:

as I was explaining to them what we're providing certifications

Alan Saquella:

skills, training capabilities.

Alan Saquella:

kids are coming out with very remarkable skills.

Alan Saquella:

And this particular chair said, we don't want to do that.

Alan Saquella:

That's not our focus.

Alan Saquella:

We want teachers, students think We don't give them skills.

Alan Saquella:

We teach theory.

Alan Saquella:

Well, that's great.

Alan Saquella:

But they come out with no skillset.

Alan Saquella:

We don't know where they are, how they're going to fit.

Alan Saquella:

And so.

Alan Saquella:

The marketplace is unforgiving to candidates.

Alan Saquella:

They want skills and want capable people.

Alan Saquella:

They want experiences specific to the whatever they're looking for.

Alan Saquella:

So we as a society, we as a nation, we, as employers need to be thinking

Alan Saquella:

about doing that and doing what we need for these faculties.

Alan Saquella:

These people, we owe it to the next generation coming in.

Alan Saquella:

wine industry.

Alan Saquella:

Yeah, it's interesting.

Alan Saquella:

Also I did a presentation.

Alan Saquella:

I was in a a public situation about a gen Z.

Alan Saquella:

next generation.

Alan Saquella:

I didn't know a lot about, chance.

Alan Saquella:

So I had to do a little research, but what I found out was gen Z was, uh,

Alan Saquella:

raised during the great recession.

Alan Saquella:

So they saw a a lot of parents lose their jobs.

Alan Saquella:

They were working on tight boxes.

Alan Saquella:

I'm excited about you see, because these kids are coming up with, they want

Alan Saquella:

loyalty and to look for job security, they like to differentiate themselves

Alan Saquella:

from the generation before them.

Alan Saquella:

So I think I'm excited about that.

Alan Saquella:

I'll look forward to seeing them come in because they're a lot more open-minded to.

Alan Saquella:

The skills they're looking for those certifications.

Alan Saquella:

And of course, that's going to help us on the entry room, uh, mid mid-level

Alan Saquella:

a little bit different, but I think, uh, overall we just have to start

Alan Saquella:

putting together tools that are gonna help us screen out the undesirables

Alan Saquella:

to start developing the skills.

Alan Saquella:

Once they're employed.

Phelim:

But what if someone wanted to be like, Specifically, I'll

Phelim:

have to ask this cause you're here.

Phelim:

I know, I know maybe some of the polygraph screening opportunities in

Phelim:

the world are diminishing because of tech and because of laws and whatever.

Phelim:

I know, I know.

Phelim:

I mean, I once picked up a book and it's, it talks about, oh, look, look at the,

Phelim:

the, the eyes, the eyes look down when they're feeling or imagining something,

Phelim:

they look when they're doing something else and they look left and right.

Phelim:

And maybe some people will, will go down a, a bit of

Phelim:

a hokey, uh, uh, type of type

Phelim:

of path if they pick up the wrong book.

Phelim:

Um, if they want to be like you

Phelim:

specifically, w what can they do?

Alan Saquella:

Well, you know, certainly they're going to have

Alan Saquella:

to formal education for sure.

Alan Saquella:

You get different ones.

Alan Saquella:

That one of the things that I specifically focused on, especially

Alan Saquella:

in the print preemployment aspects,

Alan Saquella:

look to help employers with employees is understanding human psychology.

Alan Saquella:

Is there, you know, At the university of teach, they have a

Alan Saquella:

psychology department as well, and I teach detection of deception.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, so you know, you have to start setting, and getting your mind set on.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, humans are gonna continually to rule someone, has to develop and design and

Alan Saquella:

invent these computers and these systems.

Alan Saquella:

And so we're always going to be done, but there's going to be a human element.

Alan Saquella:

So to get into this for you, get into this.

Alan Saquella:

world, Um, get, get involved

Alan Saquella:

with, um, what is necessary to

Alan Saquella:

be successful investigator print On a screen and deal with, Uh, and then of

Alan Saquella:

course, look for opportunities, especially coming in to find a mentor, find a

Alan Saquella:

strong match is going to be able to

Alan Saquella:

align with periodical and hope.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, through the career path is one of the

Alan Saquella:

the things I on a regular basis throughout my career, always taken out my teas.

Alan Saquella:

I want them to develop, cause I'm want to give back.

Alan Saquella:

I'm not going to be in this industry forever and what's going to be behind.

Alan Saquella:

So I want to leave a legacy.

Alan Saquella:

And so, uh, development, formal education, find a a mentor

Alan Saquella:

to that.

Alan Saquella:

Look to be the best in whatever you're in.

Alan Saquella:

Uh, I tell my daughter, I tell her the kid that I'm.

Alan Saquella:

Don't just be at mediocre.

Alan Saquella:

Cut, get into something

Alan Saquella:

passionate about, uh, and soul with your restaurants.

Alan Saquella:

There's a book out there called soul.

Alan Saquella:

And so forget about all the stuff, terrible life focused on the things

Alan Saquella:

you're good at and then be the best.

Alan Saquella:

And of course you are going to last over time.

Alan Saquella:

You're going to be an expert.

Alan Saquella:

If you saw with experience.

Phelim:

Great sentiment.

Phelim:

Love it.

Phelim:

Well then, well then what's next.

Phelim:

What's next for you?

Phelim:

Where we sort of coming up on, uh, 20, 22 and, uh, you know, lots of

Phelim:

interesting things, um, in the news

Phelim:

and you know, in the world of security, um, uh, around the world, what about you?

Phelim:

What's

Phelim:

what's what's next?

Alan Saquella:

I spent a lot of time and, uh, corporate world falling apart.

Alan Saquella:

That for me, it's given back.

Alan Saquella:

I like education.

Alan Saquella:

I taught when I was a graduate system.

Alan Saquella:

I didn't know anything from anything.

Alan Saquella:

So, but I knew one day I wanted to get back and I do in the way of mentoring

Alan Saquella:

and continue to help the kids build their LinkedIn profiles, writing their

Alan Saquella:

resumes

Alan Saquella:

Of course, now co-teaching with.

Alan Saquella:

The experiences that I can share with the kids.

Alan Saquella:

And so that's next.

Alan Saquella:

That's certainly going to be on my forefront here to probably retire.

Alan Saquella:

But in addition to that, I like to also help the industry.

Alan Saquella:

And so I keep my hands in the security consulting arena, as well as working.

Alan Saquella:

And this company forensics, which is helping a fuck about the Tesla stuff.

Alan Saquella:

So if you're interested now, certainly six.com more bodies, but I'm going to keep

Alan Saquella:

my hand in the industry and I'm also going to stay in education so I can get back.

Phelim:

I like it.

Phelim:

And I really love the work of Embry-Riddle aeronautical university.

Phelim:

Um, had some, had some great speakers at events, uh, from, from

Phelim:

the, the very same university.

Phelim:

And of course you've very kindly spoken

Phelim:

at, uh, at our events before, which is

Phelim:

which is fantastic.

Phelim:

But Alan, it's been a pleasure having you on, I think this is a

Phelim:

real treat because the corporate security world, the EAP world, they

Phelim:

don't understand how much they need

Phelim:

this and maybe they don't understand how much they need your skillset.

Phelim:

And the skillset provided by technology.

Phelim:

I think massive questions that we could keep on going and asking, but

Phelim:

I think this is a very, very good tool to force around the subject.

Phelim:

Um, and it's a pleasure to have you on.

Phelim:

Thank you very much for that.

Alan Saquella:

Um, thank so much.

Alan Saquella:

It's always a pleasure speaking with you.

Phelim:

So are you now an interrogator?

Phelim:

Elijah?

Phelim:

Are we all interrogators?

Phelim:

Is, is this even something a CP colleague could aspire to be?

Elijah:

Well, I think the discussion, you know, brought up a lot of good

Elijah:

topics and gave some food for thought.

Elijah:

And so, you know, obviously here's someone who has excessive

Elijah:

experience in the, uh, FBI.

Elijah:

You know, he's done deep dives into these subjects.

Elijah:

Uh, for us it's, as, as agents, as protectors, we can be able to, the

Elijah:

question is if we'll be able to incorporate some of those things into our

Elijah:

toolbox, and I think the answer is.

Phelim:

Indeed.

Phelim:

And even if it's a short course on behavioral science, behavioral analysis, I

Phelim:

know Miranda is a great proponent of that.

Phelim:

Maybe just something that would spark an interest and, and that, and that

Phelim:

idea.

Phelim:

Perhaps a lot of

Phelim:

people have yet to commit something in plain sight.

Phelim:

They've yet to be caught.

Phelim:

Doesn't mean they haven't done it.

Phelim:

And so we need

Phelim:

to switch this mindset of either the background check.

Phelim:

What did you do?

Phelim:

I pulled the criminal records.

Phelim:

Uh, you know, we need to kind of switch that mindset a little bit like developed

Phelim:

vetting, uh, which is what the UK does when it wants to really do some

Phelim:

nice vetting of its government staff.

Phelim:

And, um,

Phelim:

I think, I think we can, we can incorporate that.

Phelim:

And the other point was

Phelim:

he does believe that technology could solve the gap in proper due

Phelim:

diligence because no matter how much we complain, oh, they haven't done the

Phelim:

due diligence on hiring a team X, Y.

Phelim:

It's about time and money.

Phelim:

So do you think technology could plug that gap?

Elijah:

Oh, okay.

Elijah:

So my short answer is yes.

Elijah:

I think that was probably, maybe.

Elijah:

Uh, one of the things that will go throw up a red flag to some

Elijah:

people, because there is a fear we've had these discussions on

Elijah:

previous episodes of the podcast.

Elijah:

There is a fear that, you know, too much tech is going to replace us, uh,

Elijah:

re you know, replace these roles that we normally would be doing ourselves.

Elijah:

Uh, however, I think if we'd look at the technology as assisting us, uh,

Elijah:

helping us do these jobs, then it just, it's just a force multiplier.

Phelim:

It will be well, you know, and if you're not doing anything, then

Phelim:

absolutely this is going to be a value.

Phelim:

And then, uh, you know, whether or not you want to hire a proper investigator, what.

Phelim:

I think, I think that's a, that's a wider question.

Elijah:

Well, w we, we, we've all heard these, you

Elijah:

know, uh, some version of this story where you've got the, the automated

Elijah:

system that reviews the applications and the AI just automatically rejects,

Elijah:

uh, you know, people for whatever criteria that might not be fair.

Elijah:

So we have to keep that part in mind.

Elijah:

So I think that's why it's essential to kind of develop these skills ourselves.

Elijah:

And then.

Elijah:

Use those alongside technology and kind of bridge that gap.

Phelim:

That's a, that's a great point.

Phelim:

Cause you don't want them building.

Phelim:

Some biases conscious or unconscious where suddenly, oh no, you acted in that way.

Phelim:

And that way is bad.

Phelim:

Whereas, you know, it's, it's just a nuance.

Phelim:

But overall, I really enjoyed, uh, you know, delving into this topic.

Phelim:

As I

Phelim:

said at the beginning, criminal limbo, it's often

Phelim:

difficult to know what to

Phelim:

do in between the Christmas new year period, but even more

Phelim:

difficult, I suppose, in between the IPS happy new year period.

Phelim:

Um, and you are fresh ish off the back of ISP.

Phelim:

So, so I thought I would take this opportunity to ask, uh, how was the AP

Phelim:

forum and, uh, IP SP close protection

Phelim:

conference.

Elijah:

Yeah.

Elijah:

I mean, I had a really good time.

Elijah:

It was in Vegas.

Elijah:

Um, but again, there were two events that were back to back.

Elijah:

Uh, the first one was the EAP forum

Elijah:

that was hosted by Byron Rogers, Kristen, Wes, and a couple other gentlemen.

Elijah:

And.

Elijah:

It was very impressive.

Elijah:

We had a good turnout.

Elijah:

Uh, they asked me to speak, I didn't put anybody to

Elijah:

sleep.

Elijah:

So I guess that's, uh, uh, when in

Elijah:

my, in my book, uh, and then after that, moving into the

Elijah:

greater conference itself, the turnout was massive.

Elijah:

I think it was, uh, over 600 people.

Elijah:

Uh, and I think that was a direct result

Elijah:

of, you know, everyone having been, uh, siloed because of a COVID.

Elijah:

And so,

Elijah:

you know, coming back out the world, reopening up, knock on wood.

Elijah:

Uh, I think people were just excited to get out, see each other, communicate

Elijah:

with each other, you know, pass the business cards network and also

Elijah:

learn something new.

Elijah:

And I think that happened over the weekend.

Phelim:

And I was able to watch remotely one panel that you're on talking about

Phelim:

online learning and in-person learning.

Elijah:

Yeah.

Elijah:

That was kind of a fighter.

Phelim:

that was, that was quite quite the panel.

Phelim:

Wasn't it?

Phelim:

Um, lots of, lots of opinions.

Phelim:

And even sometimes I felt to say hybrid was offensive to some people.

Phelim:

So, so whatever, whatever, whatever you say, I feel it's

Phelim:

going to ruffle some feathers.

Elijah:

Well, I think that speaks to the fact that you know, our

Elijah:

community, um, it spans a lot of.

Elijah:

Thoughts and processes and, uh, and opinions.

Elijah:

And so particularly at something like that, where you have these, these

Elijah:

different schools of thought and no pun intended, uh, in the same room, uh, and

Elijah:

you know, people be like, Hey, I'm right.

Elijah:

Or here's a different way of looking at it.

Elijah:

And I think even though there were differences of opinion, everyone's

Elijah:

still civil about it and left learning, uh, more than maybe they walked into.

Phelim:

They did and lots and lots of content, lots of food for thought.

Phelim:

And, and I really feel that perhaps the community moved forward, uh, not

Phelim:

least because it got to meet each other.

Phelim:

So many happy

Phelim:

faces.

Phelim:

Um, but what's next for you?

Phelim:

Are you making the most of the Primo limbo?

Phelim:

Are you getting ready for new new year's

Phelim:

events?

Elijah:

Uh, you know, this is a welcomed, I just, I just got

Elijah:

off an assignment two days ago.

Elijah:

So this is a welcome period of downtime for me.

Elijah:

Uh, I usually don't even get that during the holidays.

Elijah:

And so

Elijah:

I am taking it as stride.

Elijah:

So when it.

Elijah:

Um, on the other, outside of doing this podcast and a couple

Elijah:

more recordings we have to do for

Elijah:

some future stuff with the circuit media, I'm not going to do much until new years.

Elijah:

Uh, and then I just be prepping for the next year.

Phelim:

Love it.

Phelim:

And that may be it's a great adage prep for the next year.

Phelim:

Do your due diligence on yourself, on your life on everything?

Phelim:

I don't know.

Phelim:

I'm making a segue from today's interview.

Elijah:

You do the best segues, bro.

Elijah:

I just got.

Phelim:

Uh, sometimes they have to be brutal.

Phelim:

I don't

Phelim:

know.

Phelim:

Have

Elijah:

Those are called smash cuts, right there.

Phelim:

they hit go?

Phelim:

I like that.

Phelim:

Smash.

Phelim:

Cut.

Phelim:

See you.

Phelim:

I taught you criminal limbo.

Phelim:

Now you told me smash cuts.

Elijah:

There.

Elijah:

Yeah.

Phelim:

Let's let's, uh, take this opportunity to thank the

Phelim:

community for all their hard work and support this whole year.

Phelim:

Um, it's been great on the Uber app and the PBA connect

Phelim:

app and on the magazine or the

Phelim:

podcast, all of you you've been awesome.

Phelim:

This is our 50th episode.

Phelim:

So that is really great news.

Phelim:

50, can you, can we, we started with episode zero as well, so

Phelim:

technically it's, you know,

Elijah:

It's amazing.

Phelim:

I I've I've I've really enjoyed it.

Phelim:

I really look forward to what we've got in store for

Phelim:

2022.

Elijah:

And here's a great thing.

Elijah:

I'll just.

Elijah:

Well, again, I was just on an assignment and one of the agents that was with me,

Elijah:

I looked down at his iPhone and he was listening to the podcast on it and he

Elijah:

was listening to a previous episode.

Elijah:

He was like, yeah, I'm just playing catch-up.

Elijah:

And I just thought that was great.

Elijah:

Just because, you know, having this body of work now, like you say, 50 episodes

Elijah:

here, uh, You know, while we want to

Elijah:

remain topical, the episodes have a timelessness to them.

Elijah:

You know, they're things that you can go back, listen to

Elijah:

still get something out of.

Elijah:

Um, and they don't have to be listened to in chronological order.

Elijah:

And so, um, uh, our hope is, is that we move into the, into the new year and we'll

Elijah:

have a lot of fun stuff coming up there.

Elijah:

A lot of exciting guests and a lot of engagements.

Phelim:

Love it.

Phelim:

Well, thanks to today's guest islands, Keller let's.

Phelim:

Thank our co-hosts Sean West and John Moss, uh, for being such

Phelim:

awesome colleagues this entire year.

Phelim:

So from a larger

Phelim:

myself, this has been another

Phelim:

fantastic edition of the circuit magazine podcasts.

Elijah:

Happy holidays.

Phelim:

Happy holidays.

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The Circuit Magazine Podcast
For Security Professionals who want to stay ahead of the game.

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