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Episode 49

Protective Intelligence & Threat Monitoring | Kristin Lenardson

The threat landscape is becoming so much more difficult with online threats and with people putting online whatever they want. If your principal or a politician tweets about their company, or they tweet something negative about themselves, you could immediately have thousands of threats or people that are adversarial towards you very quickly. So, in the past where we used to worry about one person physically showing up somewhere, you could  now actually have a whole movement against you, or a government, depending on what you're looking into. 

This week On the Circuit Magazine Podcast, we're speaking with Kristin Lenardson of Crisis 24 and founding board member of the International Protective Security Board (IPSB) as she discusses how protective intelligence and how EP has transformed over the last two years.

Join us as we chat about why you have to understand threat management and how to really push yourself forward and distinguish yourself in the field so you can get hired. Key insights and takeaways from this episode include: 

  • What problem are we really trying to solve for by integrating threat Intel as a service for EP?
  • Accuracy of intelligence versus speed of dissemination? Which is more important?
  • What practices and resources are recommended for operators to remain on top of threat monitoring? 
  • What can SOC operators do to achieve greater buy-in from their mobile assets?
  • How to get buy-in and explain the value proposition of intelligence gathering and analysis to stakeholders who sometimes view it as an optional extra, or a ‘nice to have.’
  • Advice or recommendations for anyone who is interested in this line of work and where to get more information and a better understanding of what it takes to be a threat analysist? What sort of skills, traits, qualifications and education is required?

Be sure to tune in to this jam-packed episode with tons of actionable ideas and tips!

More about Kristin:

Kristin Lenardson brings a wealth of experience tailormade to support organizational risk intelligence. Trained as an FBI Intelligence Analyst working both US domestic and combat zone law enforcement missions, she knows the importance of critical information for the decision makers. She has conceived, built, and lead multiple Security Operations Centers (SOCs) for global corporations in diverse industries. Kristin has managed multi-spectrum security teams including travel risk, close protection, family office, and event security. She has extensive experience managing third-party security vendor relationships. Giving back to the corporate security profession, Kristin is on the Board of Directors for the International Protective Security Board, an executive protection-focused nonprofit. 

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More about the Circuit:

The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

If you liked this podcast, we have an accompanying weekly newsletter called 'On the Circuit' where we take a deeper dive into the wider industry. Opt in here >


The Circuit team is:

  • Elijah Shaw
  • Jon Moss
  • Shaun West
  • Phelim Rowe


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Transcript
Kristen:

I don't know if it was necessarily threat intelligence at the

Kristen:

time, but, um, it was violent crime.

Kristen:

So I worked, lots of gangs, drugs, narcotics, good old fashion, FBI

Kristen:

bank robberies and stuff like that.

Phelim:

Protective intelligence and how EP has transformed over the last two

Phelim:

years today, we're going to be speaking with Kristin Lenardson of crisis 24

Phelim:

and founding board member of the IPSB.

Phelim:

I'm here with Jon Moss.

Phelim:

Jon, why is this such a key topic?

Jon:

Well, look, it's.

Jon:

Apparent that if you want to succeed in executive protection and in the

Jon:

world in which we live in and where our clients and principals face so many

Jon:

threats from so many different outlets.

Jon:

But if you want to be able to protect your principle, you going

Jon:

to have to understand and to master to some degree threat monitoring.

Jon:

Now, if you're fortunate, You might even have a team behind you.

Jon:

You might work under a G SOC and you're going to have to have a,

Jon:

an appreciation for how the G SOC works for the personalities in

Jon:

it, and to build a relationship.

Phelim:

Indeed.

Phelim:

And I think that's the key thing, because if you're a solo operator, it

Phelim:

doesn't mean it's not your wheelhouse.

Phelim:

It just means you need to know.

Phelim:

What third party to rope in or to call.

Phelim:

And if you are a bigger business than perhaps you want this in-house, which

Phelim:

I think is a nice parallel with the way we've been treating some of the

Phelim:

more technical skills, it might not be that you have to be, you know,

Phelim:

script kitty, hacker, blah, blah, blah.

Phelim:

But you need to know who to call.

Phelim:

So I like how that ties in.

Phelim:

Also today, we're going to be talking about the IPSB in Las Vegas.

Phelim:

I wasn't able to be there in person, but I saw so much online, including

Phelim:

live feeds from, our, dear friend.

Phelim:

And co-producer Elijah Shaw.

Phelim:

Um, I don't know if you caught any of it, John, but what, what are your thoughts

Phelim:

on, uh, on, on this year's event?

Jon:

Well, I missed it because I was in the air for most of it, unfortunately,

Jon:

but I was catching up in the communities.

Jon:

I saw lots of great photographs and look like everybody was having an awesome

Jon:

time and it was great to see so many.

Jon:

From our community in attendance, and to hear the really positive things that

Jon:

they had to say, and it has definitely manifested within me a huge desire

Jon:

to be at this event in the future.

Phelim:

Absolutely.

Phelim:

And it is 100% going to happen.

Phelim:

I can tell you now next year you me, Elijah and Shaun.

Phelim:

Altogether in Vegas, the lovely commitment.

Phelim:

Obviously we can't speak for everyone, but, but I think, I

Phelim:

think that is going to be a great, uh, BBA circuit and NABA collab.

Phelim:

Um, I was the 20 16, 20 17 and 2019.

Phelim:

And it absolutely has grown, but let's talk to Kristin and frame today's debate

Phelim:

around protective intelligence and the way in which it's supercharging EP.

Phelim:

It's place at the IPSB.

Phelim:

The evolution of EP threat Intel as a service.

Phelim:

And what happened at the IPSB many, many topics, perhaps too many for one

Phelim:

particular podcast, but we're here very, very pleased to welcome Kristen.

Phelim:

Lenson vice president managed risk services at crisis 24 and board member.

Phelim:

I PSP.

Phelim:

It's a pleasure to have you on.

Kristen:

I'm doing very well.

Kristen:

Thank you so much.

Kristen:

I finally recovered from Vegas and gotten enough sleep.

Phelim:

Absolutely.

Phelim:

Now what a, what an event that, was so many of our colleagues, uh, there, and

Phelim:

we're so excited to hear more about it, but I'm here with Jon Moss and together, I

Phelim:

guess we want to frame, uh, the experience with the evolution of EAP as a topic.

Phelim:

Um, so we have our three quick fire questions that we'd like

Phelim:

to ask that set the scene.

Phelim:

Um, you know, One, you know, what's the problem that we're trying to solve here?

Phelim:

What, what is the issue at hand with, with Ep and evolution, including lots

Phelim:

of different services, like threat Intel and then your passion, and then

Phelim:

what should the uninitiated know?

Phelim:

So, Kristen, what is the problem that we're trying to solve for by integrating

Phelim:

threat Intel as a service for EP?

Kristen:

I I think traditional executive protection as it's usually

Kristen:

done just the physical protection of it really does need to expand.

Kristen:

Um, obviously we talked about this before about, um, online threats.

Kristen:

We've talked about workplace violence.

Kristen:

We've talked about working from home.

Kristen:

Um, the effects of COVID over this past year, um, it's getting into medical.

Kristen:

Traditional physical.

Kristen:

Close protection.

Kristen:

Executive protection just has exploded into these different areas.

Kristen:

And in order to really do a comprehensive job to keep your principal, your

Kristen:

client, their organization, their family say you have to pull in threat

Kristen:

assessments and protective Intel.

Kristen:

And, and, and, and the problem is just getting eight in front of everyone.

Kristen:

So, first of all, we can get the knowledge out there, but then

Kristen:

really taking it to the next level.

Kristen:

So we're all providing a much better and comprehensive service to our.

Phelim:

I love it.

Phelim:

And what about you?

Phelim:

What about your background?

Phelim:

Where, where does your passion for threat Intel actually come from.

Kristen:

Oh, my passion for threat Intel.

Kristen:

Um, I started with the FBI.

Kristen:

22 years old.

Kristen:

And so I was an intelligence analyst there, so I don't know if it was

Kristen:

necessarily threat intelligence at the time, but, um, it was violent crime.

Kristen:

So I worked, um, lots of gangs, drugs, narcotics, good old fashion, FBI

Kristen:

bank robberies and stuff like that.

Kristen:

So for me, it was really understanding the looking for the puzzle pieces, right?

Kristen:

If that makes sense of what piece of my missing to really solve this puzzle.

Kristen:

And that still continues today with the work that I'm doing in the team that I.

Phelim:

And what about the uninitiated EP colleague out there?

Phelim:

Perhaps one that, you know, thinks of it as guns, gates, and guards, and

Phelim:

maybe can't see how threat Intel as a service would integrate into their work.

Phelim:

You know, they've got a bag, they've got boots.

Phelim:

They're fine.

Phelim:

What about these uninitiated people?

Kristen:

And that's fantastic and you still need the hard skills.

Kristen:

You still need to drive.

Kristen:

You still need to shoot and still need to be able to move and logistics and

Kristen:

getting the principal to safe areas.

Kristen:

Those are all very, very, very important, hard skills and they're perishable.

Kristen:

So you still need to train.

Kristen:

But because the threat landscape is becoming so much more difficult with

Kristen:

online threats with people online, you know, going in there and kind

Kristen:

of putting out whatever they want.

Kristen:

And, you know, God forbid your principal or a politician tweets

Kristen:

about their company, or they tweet something negative about themselves.

Kristen:

You could immediately have thousands of threats, um, or people

Kristen:

that are adversarial towards.

Kristen:

Very very, very quickly.

Kristen:

So what it used to be of worrying about one person physically

Kristen:

showing up here and there.

Kristen:

You could actually have a whole movement against you, um, or a government depending

Kristen:

upon what the, what you're looking into.

Kristen:

Um, and so I think that, traditional skills are very, very important, but

Kristen:

also to get employed in this world, you have to look at the soft skills.

Kristen:

You have to understand the online skills.

Kristen:

You have to understand threat management and how all the risks play into what

Kristen:

you're going to do to really push yourself forward and distinguish yourself

Kristen:

in the field so you can get hired.

Jon:

Yeah, I think already you've raised so many good points though.

Jon:

Kristen.

Jon:

And It seems now in this day and age that our clients and principals

Jon:

have more ways to hang themselves than they ever had before.

Jon:

And obviously that rests on our shoulders.

Jon:

But on the other side of that coroner, I guess we also have.

Jon:

Many more different and varied forms of solutions that we can implement now.

Jon:

So with that in mind, where do you see, the responsibility line?

Jon:

Do you think that the, uh, operator, the, the EPA agent needs to upskill

Jon:

and broaden out into these areas?

Jon:

Or should we be looking to integrate more with specialists like yourself in a G SOC.

Kristen:

So it's definitely a little bit of bull and I'll tell you what's

Kristen:

working really well at my company.

Kristen:

So we do have the traditional executive protection agents.

Kristen:

Then we have my team that does the threat assessments and the intelligence

Kristen:

products and the protective Intel.

Kristen:

Then we have a third team that is actually an intelligence team.

Kristen:

That's just looking out for the protection.

Kristen:

So what we found and my colleague Morgan Stevens can tell you about this.

Kristen:

What they found was the protectors had their hand, you know, we're constantly

Kristen:

looking at their phones, trying to get the next piece of Intel, trying to

Kristen:

figure out what the next thing should be.

Kristen:

And they didn't have eyes on the physical pieces that they needed to have.

Kristen:

So what we actually have, so we've got the physical BP team, we've got

Kristen:

the Intel team supporting the AP team.

Kristen:

Then we have another Intel team just supporting that AP team and those

Kristen:

protectors, where are they going?

Kristen:

What are they doing?

Kristen:

What do they need to know?

Kristen:

Right.

Kristen:

So it needs to be a really comprehensive environment and protectors can

Kristen:

still do the physical piece, but they need to understand the

Kristen:

importance of the other two pieces.

Kristen:

So they don't have their head in their phone, or they're not missing something

Kristen:

that they could have caught very easily.

Kristen:

Um, I think it's an educational thing that everybody can get

Kristen:

up to speed on very quickly.

Kristen:

But I think our integrated team was probably the best, but I would still say

Kristen:

that the individual protectors should know what it looks like and how to do it.

Jon:

clearly That sounds like a fantastic solution and, you know, once you're up and

Jon:

running with it and everybody's familiar with it, it's just going to be value add.

Jon:

But what have the challenges been, particularly from the point of

Jon:

view of the EP agents, uh, with working in this new, uh, dynamic.

Kristen:

I think a couple of the things have been that obviously when you

Kristen:

tell AP people that they have to read something or you give them something

Kristen:

complicated to read, it's frustrating.

Kristen:

Um, they're used to being tactical.

Kristen:

They're used to putting out quick fires.

Kristen:

And when you talk to them about a strategic issue about maybe

Kristen:

this political environment is going to affect the boss or.

Kristen:

Uh, you know, maybe this election could affect, you know, those logistics of what

Kristen:

you're going to do in these countries.

Kristen:

They don't necessarily care about the background.

Kristen:

They don't really care about the 20 pages of, or, you know, 17 years of,

Kristen:

of study that the analyst has done.

Kristen:

It's just the quick four or five things that tact with, what do you need to

Kristen:

know when you're walking out the door?

Kristen:

So I think that there's still kind of an economy.

Kristen:

Like the analyst has to know to give them the right points.

Kristen:

And then it's understanding from the executive protection agent per, you know,

Kristen:

purview that they do have to understand, uh, kind of how some of these strategic

Kristen:

issues could become a tactical issue.

Jon:

Yeah.

Jon:

Yeah, totally.

Jon:

So does this work as a two way feed or a one way feed?

Jon:

Because clearly it's, it's great to have discussions, right.

Jon:

But sometimes if the discussion is going to slow down, getting that

Jon:

information out in a timely fashion, you know, how does that work?

Kristen:

It needs to be a two-way feed.

Kristen:

So here's, let's just take the example of, um, you've got the analysts looking

Kristen:

at a POI by the analysts, looking at a person of interest or someone who's

Kristen:

adversarial against the principal.

Kristen:

Right.

Kristen:

And the analyst is the one that's looking at all the information and

Kristen:

telling them what they're doing and telling them when they see things going

Kristen:

up or down or threats are escalating or deescalating online, the protector.

Kristen:

They're going to change their operations to what is going on with

Kristen:

that POI, that adversarial person.

Kristen:

So they can better protect and mitigate risk against their,

Kristen:

against their, um, principal.

Kristen:

But if they agency something in the field, if the analyst says, Hey,

Kristen:

they're driving a brown Chevy truck.

Kristen:

And we give them a description of the person and everything else.

Kristen:

And this next time the agents come back and say, you know, he

Kristen:

wasn't driving a brown Chevy truck.

Kristen:

He was driving a different vehicle at this point.

Kristen:

Then that information needs to be cycled back into the analyst cycle.

Kristen:

So they can start looking at that information.

Kristen:

So it does really need to go both ways.

Kristen:

Um, and that can be easy debrief.

Kristen:

That could be a pre-brief before an operation, before an advance.

Kristen:

And then it could be a debrief afterwards.

Kristen:

Um, a couple of, one of the clients that we have right now, we've got

Kristen:

the operational person and the analyst and the SOC that's kind

Kristen:

of monitoring all the operations.

Kristen:

They're all on the same emails all the time.

Kristen:

Everyone is seeing the same thing.

Kristen:

So it's really opening up the communications and forcing them

Kristen:

to communicate with each other, almost to a point of nauseum,

Kristen:

but they're doing a good job

Kristen:

with it.

Jon:

Yeah, well, you know, right now.

Jon:

A lot of people.

Jon:

And I don't know I was, I was trying to keep count, but I think

Jon:

I, yeah, I think I lost count

Kristen:

at least three, it was at least

Kristen:

three

Jon:

yeah, and spread across the three teams, what are we

Jon:

looking at for this kind of setup?

Jon:

How many people on average, you know, would you typically dedicate towards this.

Kristen:

It really just depends on.

Kristen:

And of course the level of risk for each of those, you know, for each principle.

Kristen:

And that's going to be determined what that looks like.

Kristen:

Sometimes we've got some folks that maybe we just do an online review of their

Kristen:

adversaries online, or perhaps their POS.

Kristen:

We do it once a month because they're not really at a critical level where they are

Kristen:

having violent threats, um, or they're not really at a critical level where we think

Kristen:

there might be an attack, but it's someone that we just want to keep an eye on.

Kristen:

So I think one of the important things to understand that.

Kristen:

The first of all, the risk appetite of your principal, right?

Kristen:

Because if you tell them to do something and they say, no, you're not

Kristen:

gonna be able to get them to do it.

Kristen:

Um, it's understanding the ranking and rating of the threats.

Kristen:

Not everything can be a five alarm fire, otherwise you're just

Kristen:

chasing fires the whole time.

Kristen:

So you do have to think about how to.

Kristen:

Rates the level of criticality for things.

Kristen:

And then what are you going to put the most attention to?

Kristen:

Um, but then you might have someone who is so high profile, um, and so

Kristen:

adversarial that they have to have this large group to kind of keep them

Kristen:

safe and, uh, you know, online venue, physical venue, all these other pieces.

Kristen:

Um, now can the average agent that is just, you know, in a smaller shop or

Kristen:

it's just a couple of guys do this.

Kristen:

It's it's scalable.

Kristen:

It's completely scalable.

Kristen:

It's just understanding what kind of tools are out there to do it and what

Kristen:

they really have to pay attention to and what they don't have to pay attention

Kristen:

to.

Jon:

Yeah, and I liked the way that you.

Jon:

I talked about all those resources and assets and didn't mention budget once.

Kristen:

Yeah, I know, but right.

Kristen:

Isn't that fun?

Kristen:

We'll just get unlimited budgets.

Kristen:

Um, no budget is a huge, huge issue, obviously.

Kristen:

Um, but as you're, as you're showing the criticality of things, so maybe someone

Kristen:

who's very violent, maybe someone who has made threats before isn't a place of acts

Kristen:

and placement where they could commit a violent act, um, or has tried commit

Kristen:

a violent act before, you know, then obviously that's a little bit different

Kristen:

for what you would do with a budget.

Kristen:

Then maybe just some people who.

Kristen:

Online and making little threats here and there, if that makes

Kristen:

sense.

Kristen:

So.

Jon:

Yeah, totally, totally.

Jon:

And I guess the hardest aspect at least initially is to get the buy-in of the

Jon:

stakeholders, especially when, you know, there's big dollar signs attached to it.

Jon:

So what I don't want to assume it's kind of formulaic, but what have you found,

Jon:

over your time in presenting these services are good, ways to display.

Jon:

Illustrate the value proposition of having, you know, a fully staffed G SOC.

Kristen:

No, I think there's a couple of different ways to do that.

Kristen:

Obviously, again, it comes down to the initial, the initial

Kristen:

threats that we're finding the initial information that we do.

Kristen:

So what we do first, it's usually what we call an online vulnerability

Kristen:

assessment, which is just looking at the online assessment, the

Kristen:

online background and profile.

Kristen:

So if we were going to do one for Pella, we would do, um, a risk

Kristen:

assessment of him, his immediate family.

Kristen:

Um, because sometimes it's not necessarily him, it could be a number of the member of

Kristen:

his family that might be more vulnerable.

Kristen:

Um, and look at kind of what the online profile looks like for him.

Kristen:

Then also in conjunction doing a physical security assessment, right.

Kristen:

I, to look at his residence, pattern of life, maybe some of the places that

Kristen:

he goes to, um, kind of marry those two things up and then make a recommendation

Kristen:

of what we're seeing from there.

Kristen:

But then again, you always have to go back to.

Kristen:

What does the principal want to do and what are you going to talk them into?

Kristen:

Um, because I've worked places where they, you know, we could tell them you've got X,

Kristen:

Y, and Z, and they're like, no, it's fine.

Kristen:

We don't, we don't need protection.

Kristen:

We don't need help.

Kristen:

Um, so it really comes down to that.

Kristen:

I've seen some mathematical.

Kristen:

Um, which is very interesting when you're talking about, especially

Kristen:

someone who works for a multi-million dollar international company, uh,

Kristen:

you know, sir, you make X amount of money a year, which comes down to X

Kristen:

amount of money an hour, which comes down to X amount of money a minute.

Kristen:

And if you're driving a 20 minute drive between your home and work, you're

Kristen:

spending, you know, you're, you're costing shareholders, X amount of money.

Kristen:

And usually it's, it's pretty substantial.

Kristen:

And at that point then why wouldn't we hire you?

Kristen:

It's.

Kristen:

So you don't have to worry about when you had to take the next turn,

Kristen:

you are relaxing or you're working on calls or you're reading the

Kristen:

newspaper or talking to family.

Kristen:

So there are ways that you can make there's monetary arguments

Kristen:

of not only are we keeping, are we making your life easier, but we're

Kristen:

also protecting several develop.

Kristen:

And we're making sure that you're in a good environment, so you don't have

Kristen:

to be stressed about driving or in traffic or anything along those lines.

Kristen:

That's just one tiny example.

Kristen:

Um, so it I've seen those arguments made a couple of times too, especially

Kristen:

when they do have shareholders.

Kristen:

Then a lot of times you can talk the board into security more than

Kristen:

you can talk to the executives into

Kristen:

it.

Jon:

Yeah.

Phelim:

And Kristen, do you think this is a defining feature of the

Phelim:

last two years in the pandemic?

Phelim:

You know, EAP colleagues have not been traveling initially.

Phelim:

So people said, well, how can I understand what's going on in other

Phelim:

places without having boots on the ground?

Phelim:

So people gravitated towards intelligence as a service.

Phelim:

And I guess that's why we're sort of asking this, you know, the, the evolution

Phelim:

of EAP over the last couple of years.

Kristen:

So I think there's been a couple of trends that we noticed that we talked

Kristen:

about again at the conference this year.

Kristen:

So one of them was with the traveling.

Kristen:

It was a lot more, um, lot more precedent put on residential security

Kristen:

and then also online security.

Kristen:

So those were two places that obviously, you know, if you're not going to be at

Kristen:

work, you have to protect the residents a little bit more also going online

Kristen:

to look for a lot more information.

Kristen:

Um, one of the things that was brought up on a couple of the panels was

Kristen:

talking about, um, What to look for with your vendors and contractors.

Kristen:

So now that you haven't been traveling and you've got these third party

Kristen:

partners or providers in other areas, you probably need to go back and check

Kristen:

in with them because they might've been Bible before, um, the pandemic, but you

Kristen:

don't know what state they're in now.

Kristen:

So you might have to go back and kind of check on those things.

Kristen:

So it is a bit caused by the pandemic that I think people need to go

Kristen:

online and do a bit more research before they go out in places.

Kristen:

But at the same time, Um, without making it trouble, we'll get up and going.

Kristen:

I think you're going to have to rely on your partners that are in countries to

Kristen:

kind of get you that information again.

Kristen:

If you can't get there yourself.

Phelim:

And actually someone said that maybe this also came up at the

Phelim:

PSB is one of the biggest problems revisiting your previous partners in

Phelim:

all these different countries, because we don't really know how they fed

Phelim:

these last two years or we think we do, but, but maybe that's the challenge.

Kristen:

We think we'd say what we, that's the challenge.

Kristen:

And there are some regions that are still in a really, really bad, um, just state

Kristen:

their diminished medical capacity and, um, the rampant disease in these areas.

Kristen:

And they're going to take a lot longer to recover.

Kristen:

Um, a lot of, um, central south America.

Kristen:

Um, parts of Africa, they're just going to take longer to recover, um, because of

Kristen:

how, how bad the virus was in those areas.

Kristen:

And then China recover with their government medical

Kristen:

capacity, everything else.

Phelim:

And I guess, I guess that then, well, that's, that's a,

Phelim:

that's a tricky one, isn't it?

Phelim:

Because over the course of the last two years, there's been various movements,

Phelim:

uh, towards and away from a risk based approach and, you know, threat Intel,

Phelim:

uh, you know, that, that, that, that you do and threat Intel that you receive.

Phelim:

W w what you, what'd you think this is going to do to

Phelim:

the whole sort of ESM drive?

Phelim:

Um, Because obviously threat Intel as a service is inherently

Phelim:

not your own observations.

Kristen:

Um, I think honestly, it's, it's not, I would say, I mean, my

Kristen:

company is, is very big, so we do have resources all over the place,

Kristen:

but also looking at our partners.

Kristen:

It's just been really been.

Kristen:

For getting the information from them and, you know, understanding

Kristen:

that hopefully they're still in line with where they were.

Kristen:

Um, and they're giving us really good on the ground information.

Kristen:

I think it's far as.

Kristen:

Uh, like everything else online, you have to go back to not single sourcing,

Kristen:

anything, whatever, you know, if someone gives you a pizza motivation,

Kristen:

you have to go double check it.

Kristen:

You have to make sure you've got a second source of validation.

Kristen:

So there's so much disinformation out there too.

Kristen:

So I can just get on my soap box for a second.

Kristen:

That.

Kristen:

Just because you read something online does not mean it's true.

Kristen:

Just because a news source tells you, it does not mean it's true.

Kristen:

Um, you need to go back and double check everything, even with

Kristen:

maybe some of your on the ground.

Kristen:

Um, folks, they can help you with that, but you just have to make sure without

Kristen:

actually getting there, which is the tricky piece, um, that you are still

Kristen:

getting the best information that you can.

Kristen:

And that's, that's, that's going to continue to be a

Kristen:

problem for the near future.

Phelim:

But that is a great, point to make double and triple check, even, even

Phelim:

those on the ground sources and, and, and, and, you know, third parties can help.

Phelim:

Um, I think that's

Phelim:

key.

Jon:

Yeah.

Jon:

Accuracy of intelligence versus speed of dissemination.

Jon:

Right.

Jon:

And I, and I was going to ask, maybe you've already kind of hinted at this,

Jon:

but where do you see the biggest, uh, challenge in this area in terms

Jon:

of where do we need to move further towards, is it more the accuracy or is

Jon:

it more the speed that we can get the information, you know, delivered timely?

Jon:

To the right people

Kristen:

Yeah.

Kristen:

Yeah.

Kristen:

I mean, I think, I think, you know, um, speed is always, but there is, I would

Kristen:

just say there's so much disinformation that you just have to stop for a second.

Kristen:

Um, and so when something does happen, um, with our team

Kristen:

immediately, it's a life safety issue.

Kristen:

You want to report it as fast as you can.

Kristen:

Um, especially if it's something that's going to put someone in jeopardy or

Kristen:

anything along those lines, but at the same time, you can't single source.

Kristen:

So you see something pop up quickly, double check it because what you don't

Kristen:

want to be doing is spreading more misinformation, um, using resources

Kristen:

that you don't necessarily need.

Kristen:

And especially with executive protection, you never want to be the

Kristen:

agent that cries Wolf, um, because you will lose credibility so quickly.

Kristen:

So I would say, take an extra two minutes and Google a little harder.

Kristen:

That's just my, my was laying with.

Jon:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jon:

And you know, obviously coming through the pandemic, uh, as, uh, poems alluded

Jon:

to it's, it's caused a lot of EPA agencies and providers to, Maybe shift their

Jon:

focus a little bit, certainly appreciate and look for ways in which they can be,

Jon:

uh, you know, you know, providing value throughout more static, quieter times.

Jon:

So for anyone who might be in the process of setting up an operation

Jon:

center, where, where do you start?

Jon:

What's what's the first part of that footprint that you

Jon:

should be looking to put down?

Kristen:

I would definitely say getting good sources, crisis

Kristen:

communications and your procedures.

Kristen:

I would start with those three.

Kristen:

Um, because if you, regardless of sort of incident you had, if you don't have a way

Kristen:

to communicate and effectively communicate and get the right people in the right room

Kristen:

and let them know even immediately failed.

Kristen:

So you're get a piece of information, double check your sources.

Kristen:

Then have a distribution method to give those communications out.

Kristen:

Um, make sure that you're following good SOP use because if I'm in one side of.

Kristen:

Um, Intel operations that are maybe you're out in the field and we

Kristen:

don't have a plan for communication.

Kristen:

And Pelham is the boss and I escalate something before you escalate it.

Kristen:

That might make you look bad, and then you're not happy with me.

Kristen:

Um, that happens constantly.

Kristen:

But the other piece is also, you don't want to have both of us

Kristen:

going to kill him if he's the boss, because then he's irritated.

Kristen:

The two different people are coming to him.

Kristen:

So I would definitely say double check your, you know, get a good method for

Kristen:

sources, come in and double check them.

Kristen:

Get a communications plan right in place and make sure that everyone is

Kristen:

clear, um, because in an incident in an emergency communication is key.

Kristen:

And if it's not as smooth, as succinct as it should be, you're going to have issues.

Jon:

Yeah.

Jon:

Yeah, I got it.

Jon:

I'm do you think, an external setup is better than internal, like a

Jon:

fresh eyes, better in a situation.

Kristen:

It depends.

Kristen:

I've seen both, so, and I've been able, and my company actually

Kristen:

does this externally for people.

Kristen:

However, I would say, you know, you're going to bring people in.

Kristen:

If you're going to bring people in either internally or

Kristen:

externally, you have to trust them.

Kristen:

You know, you have to trust them to have your best interests are and do

Kristen:

the best thing for your company and your principals and everyone else.

Kristen:

Um, and so whichever way you're going to go with it, chefs make sure that

Kristen:

you've got that level of communication.

Kristen:

That there's no stifling of.

Kristen:

You know, maybe you've got, maybe Pelham is your internal

Kristen:

FTE and I'm your contractor.

Kristen:

And you only tell him some things, but you don't tell me

Kristen:

the things you're going to fail.

Kristen:

So, regardless of which way you do it, it really depends upon your budget.

Kristen:

It depends upon your headcount.

Kristen:

Um, some companies don't get a lot of security, internal

Kristen:

headcount where they can get a lot of money to contract services.

Kristen:

So again, it really depends on how it's all set up and, and what works for you.

Kristen:

Um, but get people you can trust and just again, make

Kristen:

sure the communication is open.

Phelim:

And only subjects.

Phelim:

What if we use you as our Intel asset on the ground, at least

Phelim:

retrospectively for, uh, last week, uh, you know, how, how, how, what is

Phelim:

the give, give us a bit of flavor and maybe, you know, was threat Intel a.

Kristen:

Um, I would say definitely threat Intel was a key topic.

Kristen:

Um, but I'll go over the highlights of the, at the show we had over

Kristen:

50 vendors, which as you know, was twice the size of what we had before.

Kristen:

Um, we had about 650 people.

Kristen:

Um, it was the largest events that we've ever had, right.

Kristen:

PSP and the largest protector.

Kristen:

In the world so far.

Kristen:

Um, it was amazing.

Kristen:

We had the first night for the reception, um, getting everybody

Kristen:

there and seeing everywhere.

Kristen:

I will tell you, there were so many people I met for the first time.

Kristen:

It was, you know, in a lot of people, I recognize a line or I've

Kristen:

been in a conference with somewhere and maybe we weren't very close.

Kristen:

But there were so many people, I didn't know.

Kristen:

Um, and it was really, really amazing to see all the new people there.

Kristen:

Uh, and they weren't necessarily new.

Kristen:

It was just their first time being able to, to actually come to the conference.

Kristen:

So it could have been a perfect storm between travel's not quite

Kristen:

up and going or people had.

Kristen:

Um, travel budgets or everyone was just dying to get to Vegas.

Kristen:

I don't know exactly.

Kristen:

Um, but I want to say it, it was a really, really well attended event.

Kristen:

Um, we had some great speakers, obviously talking about Intel.

Kristen:

So it did a panel on that.

Kristen:

We have me and the team from the kindness games, Spencer course, and

Kristen:

talk about his book, the safety trap.

Kristen:

We were very fortunate to have Fred Burton from Ontech to our

Kristen:

Intel brief, which was very cool.

Kristen:

He talked about some Intel trends and what they're seeing with.

Kristen:

Corporations.

Kristen:

Um, so overall it was a very well attended event.

Kristen:

A lot of talk around a lot of, a lot of chatter around

Kristen:

how the business has changed.

Kristen:

Um, what we've been doing differently during COVID.

Kristen:

Um, we had a lot of discussion around standards and guidelines.

Kristen:

So the, um, ASI S executive protection community has been working on.

Kristen:

They're not standards and guidelines.

Kristen:

They are best practices.

Kristen:

And so what the intent with this is, is to have kind of

Kristen:

base best practices throughout different parts of the industry.

Kristen:

Obviously the physical, but medical and legal and ethical and, um, you

Kristen:

know, practitioner what you should and shouldn't do with relationships.

Kristen:

Um, and so.

Kristen:

There's a lot of us have been working on that for a long time.

Kristen:

There is a second group that is coming up and they're going to

Kristen:

look at ANSI certification, which is going to be more us centric.

Kristen:

So there's a lot of interesting work being done to continuously professionalize

Kristen:

the executive protection field.

Kristen:

And that's also very exciting.

Phelim:

I loved all the, um, livestreams, uh, that I got.

Phelim:

Uh, but, but, but I also enjoyed the fact that one of our co producers, uh, Mr.

Phelim:

Elijah Shaw himself, was on a panel talking about online training.

Phelim:

Um, I thought, I thought that was really, really interesting.

Kristen:

that was actually the first time I had the pleasure of

Kristen:

meeting Elijah and he was amazing.

Kristen:

He was so good.

Kristen:

And, um, we even had an author's corner.

Kristen:

So we had a place for those who have executive protection of written,

Kristen:

um, to kind of sell their books.

Kristen:

So he was also one of the authors that we featured.

Kristen:

Um, yeah, just really amazing to have him on the panel and talk a little bit about.

Kristen:

And the different types of training and my opinion on it is look, my mom

Kristen:

used to be a teacher and she was a teacher for, um, you know, learning

Kristen:

disabilities, uh, younger children.

Kristen:

And so people learn differently and you have to, you have to teach

Kristen:

however that person's going to learn.

Kristen:

So we did have a training panel.

Kristen:

It was a little decisive, but at the end of the day, however, the student

Kristen:

learns is the way you should teach them some like online I'm like in person.

Kristen:

Shorts, you know, short spurts.

Kristen:

Um, so it was really good, but at the end of the day, there's so many different

Kristen:

ways people learn and I think that's important to take into account also.

Phelim:

Yeah, it did cause some, uh, some, some debate, which is always good.

Phelim:

It's always good.

Phelim:

Um, even,

Kristen:

might be another good webinar for you to do.

Phelim:

Hey, maybe, maybe John, what does.

Jon:

Yeah, I think there's room to squeeze one more in there.

Jon:

But listen, uh, I, I w I want to ask one thing before we finish out here.

Jon:

I want to know from Kristin what she thinks, if we've got any listeners

Jon:

who are thinking, you know what, this, this area really excites

Jon:

me, I'm really interested in this.

Jon:

They want to get into a career, or maybe they want to make a

Jon:

transition, or perhaps they just want to expand their own learning.

Jon:

Aside from qualifications and education, uh, because I, you

Jon:

know, that can be researched.

Jon:

What are the kind of skills and traits and what are the things that

Jon:

people can be doing to broaden their knowledge and to find out whether

Jon:

this would be a good fit for them?

Kristen:

So there's a few organizations out there there's AIRIP, which is

Kristen:

the association of international risk intelligence professionals.

Kristen:

And that is kind of the, that is kind of the ASI S just for Intel analysts.

Kristen:

Um, I want to say that Ontech is, has the center for protective intelligence and.

Kristen:

it's free!, you can go look at their blogs.

Kristen:

You can go look at the writing there.

Kristen:

Um, they do a survey and they do an annual study of kind of what they're

Kristen:

seeing is predictive intelligence trends.

Kristen:

Um, so I think that's very important.

Kristen:

I, you know, we're starting to get a lot more resources

Kristen:

around protective intelligence.

Kristen:

Um, the.

Kristen:

DHS in the U S department of Homeland security, um, did a public

Kristen:

sector, private sector project.

Kristen:

And so the team from that last year actually did a white paper on

Kristen:

private sector intelligence programs.

Kristen:

So that's really interesting to find also, um, I happen to have a

Kristen:

copy if somebody wants to see it.

Kristen:

Um, and so that's a really interesting one too, to kind of talk about

Kristen:

like, what do these programs do?

Kristen:

How do you set them up and why did you use

Kristen:

them?

Jon:

Amazing.

Jon:

Some great resources for anyone who isn't, uh, fortunate enough to begin

Jon:

that career in the FBI, I suppose.

Jon:

Right.

Kristen:

Yes.

Phelim:

And yeah, it's great.

Phelim:

You mentioned, uh, on tick and you know, we've got, we've got a lot of friends,

Phelim:

from Ontech we can mention you all by name, but, uh, you know who you are.

Phelim:

Um, but, but, but I like this, you know, combining a thematic interview with.

Phelim:

Well, tell us how it went at ISB.

Phelim:

I think this is a nice approach because it's quite, zeitgeisty, it's quite current

Phelim:

and, uh, you know, especially where as we, as we, as we look to the future of,

Phelim:

um, varying degrees of travel threat, Intel seems to be a revenue stream.

Phelim:

And modus operandi that a lot of our colleagues are, are going to look towards.

Phelim:

Um, so, uh, from John and myself, it's been a pleasure having you on Kristin.

Phelim:

We, we, we are very grateful for your time and we look forward

Phelim:

to welcome you to the answer.

Kristen:

Yes.

Kristen:

Thank you guys so much for having me on and let me know what else need.

Jon:

It was our pleasure.

Jon:

Thank you, Kristin.

Phelim:

Absolutely feeling that.

Phelim:

Really great to have Kristin Lenardson on today and, you know, reporting back

Phelim:

from the IPSB, we really got a great flavor of where it went, where it's

Phelim:

going and how vibrant the community actually is on the thematic side of

Phelim:

the podcast, protective intelligence.

Phelim:

I think this is what Ep colleagues were up to when they weren't traveling

Phelim:

at the beginning of the pandemic.

Phelim:

What do you think.

Jon:

Yeah, it's fantastic.

Jon:

You know, when to get a guest like Kristen on and with the knowledge that

Jon:

she's gotten the experience that she has under a belt and to just be able

Jon:

to fire questions at her and, and tap into that knowledge is just incredible.

Jon:

I mean, I took a lot of way from that.

Jon:

What about yourself?

Jon:

What was the big takeaway?

Phelim:

Well, I think you need to cross reference even the boots on the ground

Phelim:

sources because there's, there's often an inherent, um, you know, assumption.

Phelim:

We got, we've got some Intel about a protest and, and apparently it's a

Phelim:

really large, well, the boots on the ground looked out the window and it

Phelim:

was three people in one black art.

Phelim:

So, so, so usually that shuts down the conversation, but especially

Phelim:

after the last two years, we need to reassess our local friends and see how

Phelim:

they're holding up, because we even need to cross reference that Intel.

Phelim:

And for me, that was, that was a big takeaway.

Jon:

Yeah, it's the whole accuracy versus speed debate.

Jon:

And I find this fascinating, you know, getting that timely information

Jon:

out there so that it's effective and you can do something with it, but

Jon:

ensuring at the same time that this information, this intelligence is

Jon:

accurate and it hasn't been polluted.

Phelim:

Which actually is a nice segue into why online learning also has this

Phelim:

debate at hand, because you can be very, very current, very, very immediate.

Phelim:

You can set things up very quickly.

Phelim:

There is also a great benefit to offline learning and, and, uh, and that segue,

Phelim:

I sort of brutally made there because it was wonderful to see Elijah Shaw us

Phelim:

speaking on several panels at the IB.

Phelim:

I'd be BSB most, most.

Phelim:

Interestingly for me was that debate around online learning.

Phelim:

Offline learning.

Phelim:

And I know even the one post that I made just this week, uh, got, so we say a lot

Phelim:

of attention, uh, on, on that very topic.

Phelim:

Uh, what what'd you think horses for courses or have

Phelim:

we reached a turning point?

Jon:

well, you know what, uh, I actually want.

Jon:

Take this opportunity to address a slightly different topic here and it's

Jon:

to do with our communities and the type of people who comes into the community.

Jon:

Uh, you know, they want to be active.

Jon:

They want to progress.

Jon:

They want to learn, but I saw something, uh, this weekend or through

Jon:

the IPS B via the communications that were coming out of it.

Jon:

Uh, there's a particular.

Jon:

Who we have in both the BBA and NABA, and that says something,

Jon:

and I'm not going to say his name.

Jon:

He knows who he is, but the reason why I bring it up is because I think

Jon:

he's been a shining example of what somebody can get when they engage.

Jon:

When you know, joining the associations is great reading the magazine, but really.

Jon:

The benefit comes from engaging and immersing yourself in this.

Jon:

And in this one particular member who joined at the start of the,

Jon:

uh, was new to security, he came.

Jon:

With his eyes wide open and his hands up, you know, not apologetic, but

Jon:

saying, I, you know, I'm fresh, I'm new.

Jon:

I want to learn a, don't know where to go.

Jon:

Can you guys help me?

Jon:

And we said, look, you know, we've got the resources.

Jon:

Here's the direction.

Jon:

Here's our suggestions.

Jon:

Okay.

Jon:

This guy has got such an enthusiasm.

Jon:

He's asking questions all the time, you know, faster than you can answer them.

Jon:

And it's that hunger that has driven him and, you know, to see

Jon:

where he is now today in such a short space of time and seeing him.

Jon:

That event, you know, proudly sporting his budgets and the progress that

Jon:

he's made in that time, I think is a fantastic illustration of, what

Jon:

you can get when you're dedicated and you really put yourself into it.

Phelim:

And that is a great example of engagement.

Phelim:

So, so blow, blow the.

Phelim:

Uh, the water engagement and willingness to, uh, network I

Phelim:

think is, is absolutely key.

Phelim:

And if it is the same person, I very much think I know the same

Phelim:

person that you're thinking of.

Phelim:

Uh, then, then it was supposed to meet that person, um, the other week as well.

Phelim:

But we are still looking to include some interesting topics for the

Phelim:

next edition of the magazine.

Phelim:

And I, for one, I'm going to write a synopsis of what's coming up for the

Phelim:

seventh annual executive security close protection technology forum in London.

Phelim:

January, um, lots of other topics that we are looking for.

Phelim:

And, uh, I really feel that we can mind the IP SB experience

Phelim:

for loads of contributors.

Phelim:

Um, aside from that, the apps very, very, very, uh, good, uh, engagement,

Phelim:

both on the NABA Protector App and the BBA connect app, uh, loads

Phelim:

of people we could mention, but.

Phelim:

Being here for a long time, you know who you are.

Phelim:

Uh, we're very grateful for your support, but it was a great pleasure to welcome.

Phelim:

Kristin.

Phelim:

And I am very grateful for her support for the magazine.

Phelim:

So from John and myself, this has been another fantastic addition

Phelim:

to the Circuit magazine podcast.

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