The Role of Physical Security in the Managed Security Service of the Future | Mark Ledlow & Patrick Kane

Patrick Kane: 00:00:01

there's a degree of specialization in these things.

Patrick Kane: 00:00:03

And sometimes the group that tries to be all things to all

Patrick Kane: 00:00:06

people, uh, is gonna fail.

Patrick Kane: 00:00:08

So I think a lot of it's gonna be about subcontracting and strategic partnering

Phelim: 00:00:34

This week for the circuit magazine podcast, we're gonna

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try something slightly different.

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We're going to reflect on a recent session.

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We ran with the one and only Patrick Kane security director at Atlas air.

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And mark led low founder of led low security group at the managed security

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services forum, Los Angeles county.

Phelim: 00:00:55

Why are we doing this?

Phelim: 00:00:56

It was actually a really engaging session where we looked at exactly why executive

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protection and corporate security are going to have to be at the heart of any

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new managed security service program.

Phelim: 00:01:09

And at first you might think, yes, of course.

Phelim: 00:01:12

And we're a little biased.

Phelim: 00:01:13

However, because of the economies of scale that managed security service, uh,

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providers offer, it's only natural that you're going to effectively outsource.

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Now it doesn't mean that you have to become a hacker.

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It just means that perhaps if your client wants a particular

Phelim: 00:01:30

service, you know who to call, many of you are not TSCM specialists.

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And many of you will bring in that expertise.

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now, it doesn't have to be anything too complex.

Phelim: 00:01:40

It could just be a partnership to begin with.

Phelim: 00:01:43

However, in the future, the managed security service that people know of.

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Truly cyber is going to have to face up to the physical reality

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of the world in which they live.

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So all in all, I hope you like today's session.

Phelim: 00:01:58

I think it brings something slightly different to the podcast.

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Of course, we are going to be doing the thematic interviews and exposes

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on many, many topics that keep you the listener awake at night, but please.

Phelim: 00:02:12

Do let us know how this goes.

Phelim: 00:02:13

So let's get into it.

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Let's talk with Patrick Kane and mark led low, and let's look at the way in which

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physical security EP fits squarely in the managed security service of tomorrow.

Phelim: 00:02:48

We've delighted to welcome patrick Kane, senior director of secured at Atlas

Phelim: 00:02:53

air mark Ledo on Leto security group, and I hope to shed some light on the

Phelim: 00:02:59

modernized physical security service, the modernized corporate security service

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and get people thinking in terms of risk management rather than, cybersecurity

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specifically, how's it been going?

Phelim: 00:03:10

Patrick.

Phelim: 00:03:11

It's

Patrick Kane: 00:03:11

excellent.

Patrick Kane: 00:03:12

I'm always interested in having a little bit of an understanding of

Patrick Kane: 00:03:15

cyber, one of these things where I'm sure I won't ever be an expert at it,

Patrick Kane: 00:03:19

but at least having a little bit of understandings were always helpful.

Phelim: 00:03:24

Absolutely.

Phelim: 00:03:24

And, uh, and, and, and the same for you, mark, how's it been.

Mark Ledlow: 00:03:29

Yes.

Mark Ledlow: 00:03:29

You know, as eye opening, knowing where the future is in security, there's so many

Mark Ledlow: 00:03:34

experts that you have on your program, on the panels that it's like, oh, it's just

Mark Ledlow: 00:03:39

not a, it's not just a bodyguard business.

Mark Ledlow: 00:03:41

It's not just an ex exactly protection industry.

Mark Ledlow: 00:03:44

It's so much deeper that so much more intrinsic.

Mark Ledlow: 00:03:47

And, uh, there's so many variables that cover the word

Mark Ledlow: 00:03:50

security in the corporate arena.

Phelim: 00:03:52

And, you know, beyond the obvious the fact that, it security will need

Phelim: 00:03:57

some kinetic response at some time, for some reason, uh, not least if we do

Phelim: 00:04:02

move into the current economic climate.

Phelim: 00:04:06

Let's say we are not allowed to say recession.

Phelim: 00:04:08

Um, you know, you're going see the need to work with your physical security partners.

Phelim: 00:04:13

So let's paint a picture, um, and I'll start with you, mark.

Phelim: 00:04:19

Just to, to help our cyber colleagues see some synergy.

Phelim: 00:04:23

How has corporate security modernized, especially over the last two years?

Phelim: 00:04:27

Has there been in new offerings, especially when corporate

Phelim: 00:04:30

security wasn't allowed in the office, wasn't allowed to travel.

Mark Ledlow: 00:04:33

Yes, like night and day difference.

Mark Ledlow: 00:04:35

You know, I think the, the awakening for me was when I attended not to plug

Mark Ledlow: 00:04:39

antic for example, but I was at the conference and also following LinkedIn,

Mark Ledlow: 00:04:43

I'm seeing a lot of corporate, uh, roles for protective intelligence,

Mark Ledlow: 00:04:47

more roles in that role versus building executive protection program.

Mark Ledlow: 00:04:52

and I think what's happening is, is taking place is, you know, they have to

Mark Ledlow: 00:04:55

justify to their shareholders why they need an executive protection team or

Mark Ledlow: 00:04:59

protective, uh, protective security team.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:02

They have to, you know, that comes out of the bottom line of that corporation.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:05

And if they can do intelligence enough with data numbers and facts

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to show proof, Hey, this is why we need to protect our CEO or C-suite

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because these numbers, these.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:17

Materials show us.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:18

These are the forecasts in this industry that we're in.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:22

And I think that's the.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:25

The new era of security and cyber as well.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:27

Cyber is right there.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:29

It's, you know, we got, we have more cyber attacks internationally than we

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:33

do have bumps, you know, going on cause cyber, you know, you go in the dark

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:37

web and you could be coming anybody you want and everything's up for a price.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:41

It's the dark web, you know, auctioning off for threats, whether

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:45

it's utility grids, whether it's water, whether it's, uh, branding

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:49

threats to corporation branding.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:51

There's so many things.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:53

The bodyguard, which world, where I come from.

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:55

So that's kind of what I'm seeing is protective intelligence is

Mark Ledlow: 00:05:59

the future of physical security.

Phelim: 00:06:02

Absolutely.

Phelim: 00:06:03

If you imagine all these executives, um, ranging from tech bros, uh, maybe there's

Phelim: 00:06:08

not so many crypto billionaires anymore, but you know, people who just realizing

Phelim: 00:06:15

that they need to protect their person.

Phelim: 00:06:17

And they're like, wait a minute, but I've spent all this on cyber.

Phelim: 00:06:21

But, but, but now I need to protect cargo.

Phelim: 00:06:23

I need to protect people.

Phelim: 00:06:25

Um, Patrick, do you think people are, are waking up to this?

Phelim: 00:06:28

Cause as far as I understand, Patrick, there is a big, shortage

Phelim: 00:06:32

of EP personnel and, and other physical security in the states.

Patrick Kane: 00:06:36

Yeah.

Patrick Kane: 00:06:36

I think in general, two of the things we've seen out of, uh,

Patrick Kane: 00:06:40

co of the, the whole pandemic.

Patrick Kane: 00:06:42

Has been, uh, in terms of opportunities.

Patrick Kane: 00:06:45

I think we've highlighted for our stakeholders.

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The impact a crisis is able to have.

Patrick Kane: 00:06:50

So I think there's.

Patrick Kane: 00:06:52

A kind of new appreciation of the safety and security function within

Patrick Kane: 00:06:56

organizations that perhaps I won't say it was absent before, but I don't think

Patrick Kane: 00:07:01

the impact was as clearly understood.

Patrick Kane: 00:07:03

But now after having a global event like we've had with the pandemic,

Patrick Kane: 00:07:07

I think every everybody's been impacted in some shape or form.

Patrick Kane: 00:07:10

So I think there's a greater stakeholder understanding.

Patrick Kane: 00:07:14

Of the importance of our function.

Patrick Kane: 00:07:16

Uh, I think in terms of challenges though, um, there are quite a few, I mean, you

Patrick Kane: 00:07:21

have the, the obvious ones that we've had in COVID, but there've also been

Patrick Kane: 00:07:25

a lot of second order ones in terms of the economic impact here in the United

Patrick Kane: 00:07:30

States and overseas all over the world.

Patrick Kane: 00:07:32

And as end result the impact, you've seen a civil unrest and protest.

Patrick Kane: 00:07:37

Uh, increased crime and so on.

Patrick Kane: 00:07:40

And to your, your, your, uh, question about EP personnel and just in

Patrick Kane: 00:07:44

general personnel, I think there's been a concern about capabilities.

Patrick Kane: 00:07:49

Um, we're clearly overall in a situation where there's a, a shortage of employees,

Patrick Kane: 00:07:56

uh, across a variety of separate sectors.

Patrick Kane: 00:07:59

So being able to find people and find quality people.

Patrick Kane: 00:08:02

I think it's probably more challenging than it's ever been before.

Patrick Kane: 00:08:05

Uh, now we have workforces which are dispersed where we

Patrick Kane: 00:08:09

have, uh, hybrid environments.

Patrick Kane: 00:08:10

We have people at home who otherwise were in the office and what's the

Patrick Kane: 00:08:15

responsibility of an organization now to be concerned about the individual

Patrick Kane: 00:08:19

safety and security and situation of each of those employees in their, in their

Patrick Kane: 00:08:24

separate home, home offices and so forth.

Patrick Kane: 00:08:28

And then as far as, as overseas as well too, I mean, understanding that we have to

Patrick Kane: 00:08:32

support operations overseas, what impact has this had on our, our, our providers?

Patrick Kane: 00:08:37

Do we need to stop back?

Patrick Kane: 00:08:38

And we talked about this before in other other particular forms and so forth,

Patrick Kane: 00:08:41

but do we need to stop back and evaluate our providers, our transportation

Patrick Kane: 00:08:46

security and our hotels and so forth in other areas and make sure they still

Patrick Kane: 00:08:50

have the capabilities that they had prior to, uh, 20, 20, early, 20, 20?

Phelim: 00:08:56

Yeah, absolutely.

Phelim: 00:08:57

Now we can be very sure there are no safe.

Phelim: 00:09:01

Locations, right.

Phelim: 00:09:02

We know what is a hot zone and we know what is not a hot zone.

Phelim: 00:09:05

Okay.

Phelim: 00:09:05

That much is clear, but truly safe.

Phelim: 00:09:08

When, when in the middle of the last two years, maybe a, uh, doctor

Phelim: 00:09:12

would not be available in a major European city that that's new.

Phelim: 00:09:18

You know, lots of things to think about and people might say, well, hang on.

Phelim: 00:09:22

Why are we talking physical security at an MSS event?

Phelim: 00:09:26

And what I like to always do is to say, think more broadly, MSS.

Phelim: 00:09:31

I know there's difference between the managed service provider who is often

Phelim: 00:09:35

constructed by a business person.

Phelim: 00:09:37

They want to provide someone's it.

Phelim: 00:09:39

I get it.

Phelim: 00:09:39

And the MSS, it's someone that's been, you know, through the ranks of cyber

Phelim: 00:09:43

and InfoSec and they, they they're building out a specific service, but

Phelim: 00:09:48

at the end of the day, it's a service.

Phelim: 00:09:49

It's a value added reseller.

Phelim: 00:09:52

So you don't necessarily do your own pen testing.

Phelim: 00:09:56

You farm it out to someone you don't necessarily, uh, uh,

Phelim: 00:10:01

install your own CCTV cameras.

Phelim: 00:10:03

You might work with a third party and with the advent of biometric CCTV identity act

Phelim: 00:10:09

identity, access management merging with a lot of physical security technology,

Phelim: 00:10:14

there are it managed those providers that are offering physical security solutions.

Phelim: 00:10:22

And there are some of the big physical security, uh, EP even

Phelim: 00:10:27

providers who are now offering cyber.

Phelim: 00:10:30

Okay.

Phelim: 00:10:30

So I push back on the notion that we shouldn't talk about it because

Phelim: 00:10:35

it's just another revenue stream.

Phelim: 00:10:37

It's just another string to your boat.

Phelim: 00:10:39

So there's no reason why you might can't partner with a cyber, uh,

Phelim: 00:10:43

MSS and, and, and offer that.

Phelim: 00:10:45

Um, there's no reason why they can't partner with you and offer your services.

Phelim: 00:10:50

Um, I, I I'd be interested in your thoughts for the future of that mark.

Mark Ledlow: 00:10:54

It's gonna be, uh, well, if I had a crystal ball, it'd be a billionaire.

Mark Ledlow: 00:10:58

And so I don't, but what I see happening.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:02

domestically, we have the midterm elections, of course.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:04

And we have a polarized country is what the media tells us.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:09

The media tells us we have a polarized society, which is calling this rift, but

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:14

if you talk to people around the country, you know, we're more unified than ever.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:17

And so it's, uh, propaganda, you know, that's a threat now propaganda machines

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:23

where they're coming from foreign ages.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:25

We don't know, we have to talk to the CI folks over there and,

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:27

and, you know, NSA folks to figure out what's really going on.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:30

But I think we have a false sense of what's really happening around the world.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:35

And we're only told so, so much source information from our media outlets.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:40

You know, that's one issue that we have, we have, you know, it's gonna

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:43

be a call it the summer rage from a physical standpoint, and they have

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:46

a lot of site security needs here.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:49

Uh, as far as cyber goes, I think that's gonna be an ongoing thing.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:52

We probably put that in propaganda, you know, cyber security type of thing.

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:55

And I think, I think the win for the industry is gonna

Mark Ledlow: 00:11:58

be protective intelligence.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:00

I think if we can master our intelligence master.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:04

Uh, the information coming across desk, we can make accurate forecast

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:08

on where we need to, uh, mitigate risks where those risks are, you know,

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:12

protests, Rio, supply chain issues.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:15

I'm hearing we're gonna have food shortages in the future.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:18

Because the shortage of beef is that propping yet?

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:20

I don't know.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:21

I'm not a farmer.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:22

I don't, I don't sit on the agriculture board, so I don't know, but there's

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:25

a lot of information being fed to us.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:27

My question is, is it true information?

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:29

Is it real?

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:30

And that's why protective intelligence is so needed right now.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:33

I think that's why corporations are going that direction because

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:37

they go, well, we see value there.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:39

They'll see more value there.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:41

And like Patrick said, you gotta protect, you know, the stakeholder's

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:44

interests in, you know, in the company and the brand protect that.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:48

And so I see, um, just branding, you know, had social media issues.

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:54

And if you're a corporate, you know, entity and you have kids and you're,

Mark Ledlow: 00:12:57

you know, high net worth family, let's say you're the CEO of X, Y, Z company.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:01

And your kids are all over social media.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:03

And, you know, doing updates, like the Kardashians of where you're

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:05

going, you know, you'd create yourself a target, especially you're

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:08

down in Mexico where the cartel, and then not only mentioned cartel.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:13

We had this thing called, you know, they're lacing the drugs.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:16

And I just had a, a conversation with a buddy of mine who

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:20

was overseeing the hotel.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:22

In this, uh, gas at the hotel overdosed on marijuana, because it was laced with

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:27

the stuff fentanyl from over in China.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:29

And that stuff's making its way into our country right now.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:31

It's going all over the place and it's, uh, it's a, it's an absolute, it's a war.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:36

It's a war on drugs.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:38

And, um, Michael or not.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:40

Yeah, it's, uh, it's here.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:42

And so we have so many things coming, you know, so many different

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:46

weapons being weaponized against us.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:48

If you're overseas, you got, you know, you're trying to survive

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:51

in your Ukraine with that.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:52

And Europeans are trying to figure out what's going on.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:54

There's so much stuff.

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:56

And, uh, you know, cyber's one, but we, what, what great thing

Mark Ledlow: 00:13:59

about security is we, so I have so.

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:01

Experts in their, uh, geniuses that they know how to play this.

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:07

The game of protecting our infrastructure.

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:10

You have cyber, you have intelligence, you have, you know, bodyguards and

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:14

you have, you know, supply chain, I think supply chain's gonna be a

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:17

very big issue on the next wave of COVID, you know, in the next way.

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:22

The mutations gonna be a thousand mutations.

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:23

And I, you know, I was down with Phillip for two months.

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:26

And, uh, you know, whether you, you get the vaccine or do

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:30

you believe the vaccine works?

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:31

You know, there's so many parallels that were being faced in the next couple years.

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:34

So we live in an interesting time and, uh, security is gonna explode.

Mark Ledlow: 00:14:39

I think it's gonna be

Phelim: 00:14:40

needed.

Phelim: 00:14:41

And specifically you raised that, that term protective intelligence.

Phelim: 00:14:45

And maybe that's the synergy.

Phelim: 00:14:47

That's the synergy because the cyber threat Intel.

Phelim: 00:14:52

Is applicable to a variety of scenarios, but what if protective intelligence

Phelim: 00:14:58

could be integrated maybe in a, so maybe, uh, travel risk intelligence

Phelim: 00:15:03

may be protest intelligence, maybe, you know, uh, there's plenty of,

Phelim: 00:15:08

uh, fraud investigations going on.

Phelim: 00:15:10

Yes.

Phelim: 00:15:11

There's some things people can do behind a desk, but sometimes they

Phelim: 00:15:13

send out a private investigator.

Phelim: 00:15:16

And who's that

Phelim: 00:15:18

, Mark Ledlow: you know, it's yeah.

Phelim: 00:15:19

Your investigation component.

Phelim: 00:15:20

Yeah.

Phelim: 00:15:21

Yeah.

Phelim: 00:15:22

We just did a huge job.

Phelim: 00:15:24

It was about three weeks job doing surveillance up in Portland.

Phelim: 00:15:28

And we had four, four people on that team, 12 hour shifts,

Phelim: 00:15:30

and I'm like, holy cow protect.

Phelim: 00:15:32

Uh, detective workers is really skyrocketing.

Phelim: 00:15:34

Investigations is blowing up and, you know, investigations on

Phelim: 00:15:38

pharmaceutical supply chains going on.

Phelim: 00:15:40

That's gonna be a big need, I think.

Phelim: 00:15:42

Cause they're gonna have to ramp up, you know, medications and stuff for every.

Phelim: 00:15:45

And something that's not being talked about right now is the

Phelim: 00:15:48

shortage of medical staff and nurses, supporting people are getting sick.

Phelim: 00:15:53

There's a big shortage of nurses and doctors out there throughout

Phelim: 00:15:55

the United States, huge shortage and PE and people are just burned

Phelim: 00:15:58

out because of, we just have COVID.

Phelim: 00:16:00

And so nobody's really talking about that, that issue yet.

Phelim: 00:16:03

Everybody's kind of letting that kinda lie down and it's kind of being quiet.

Phelim: 00:16:08

No one wants to address it.

Phelim: 00:16:09

But, you know, the next way we have of infections and all that is gonna blow

Phelim: 00:16:13

the whole medical world upside down.

Phelim: 00:16:16

So, so sort of following up on that, um, But not with the

Phelim: 00:16:19

medical component so much, but, but Patrick, do you, do you think that

Phelim: 00:16:24

physical security is going to be a lot more in demand because maybe,

Phelim: 00:16:29

maybe a cyber sock will say there's an incident or we're being attacked.

Phelim: 00:16:33

Uh, why?

Phelim: 00:16:35

And, and yes, there's international state actors and we won't be able to

Phelim: 00:16:38

find out why, and then this nation states and that's a, a real issue.

Phelim: 00:16:42

But do you think that increasingly physical security will.

Phelim: 00:16:45

The boots on the ground, you know, like let's send them out.

Phelim: 00:16:48

There's, there's a protest happening.

Phelim: 00:16:49

Well, is there, you know, there's three people with black cards.

Patrick Kane: 00:16:53

I think increasingly we're seeing an overlap.

Patrick Kane: 00:16:56

I think it's already happening.

Patrick Kane: 00:16:57

I think it's gonna happen even more in the future.

Patrick Kane: 00:16:59

I mean, I think you, you, you hit an important aspect film when you

Patrick Kane: 00:17:02

mentioned about the, uh, increasing, um, Requirements, uh, of, of it knowledge

Patrick Kane: 00:17:10

when you look at security technology.

Patrick Kane: 00:17:11

So like when you're looking at camera systems and things like that, if

Patrick Kane: 00:17:14

you were to go back 20 years, it wasn't as much of an issue, but now

Patrick Kane: 00:17:18

if you're involved in that space, you need to understand the kind of

Patrick Kane: 00:17:22

cyber aspects of that as well, too.

Patrick Kane: 00:17:24

And you need to understand there's potential compromise of, of those

Patrick Kane: 00:17:28

systems on the cyber side as well.

Patrick Kane: 00:17:29

So I think for the, the practitioner in the physical space, you need

Patrick Kane: 00:17:33

to have an understanding of that.

Patrick Kane: 00:17:34

And I.

Patrick Kane: 00:17:35

The, um, we were speaking earlier about EP and the EP aspect of it.

Patrick Kane: 00:17:40

I think one of the things as we start looking at smart homes and smart

Patrick Kane: 00:17:45

cars, and some of these other things, there are vulnerabilities now that

Patrick Kane: 00:17:48

exist, that didn't exist before.

Patrick Kane: 00:17:50

And I think for providers who are protecting individuals who are at

Patrick Kane: 00:17:55

risk, either because of their income level or their public profile,

Patrick Kane: 00:18:00

I think we need to be concerned.

Patrick Kane: 00:18:02

The exploitation of those, um, smart homes and smart cars and so forth as

Patrick Kane: 00:18:08

a possible vector for somebody to, uh, inflict harm on that, on that person.

Patrick Kane: 00:18:13

Uh, as far as the security element or physical security element being,

Patrick Kane: 00:18:17

um, Being kind of on the ground.

Patrick Kane: 00:18:20

Yes.

Patrick Kane: 00:18:20

I mean, I think, I think there's also a lot of opportunity for a

Patrick Kane: 00:18:24

sharing of intelligence between the cyber and physical sides.

Patrick Kane: 00:18:28

And there was an organization, uh, that, um, that I was in, in

Patrick Kane: 00:18:33

contact with speaking with that actually has a joint Intel group.

Patrick Kane: 00:18:36

So there's like a physical component.

Patrick Kane: 00:18:39

A cyber component, but on intelligence, there's like a shared group and they,

Patrick Kane: 00:18:44

um, they, uh, exchange information on, on the Intel side, particularly

Patrick Kane: 00:18:49

for areas which are overlapping, both the cyber and physical.

Patrick Kane: 00:18:52

So I think this is something we're gonna see only, only increasing.

Patrick Kane: 00:18:56

And I think, um, That's why it's helpful for us to have

Patrick Kane: 00:19:00

a, an understanding of cyber.

Patrick Kane: 00:19:02

You know, it doesn't have to be in depth, but at least understanding

Patrick Kane: 00:19:05

at the 40,000 foot, uh, scale.

Patrick Kane: 00:19:07

And then for our cyber colleagues to have some understanding of, of our operations

Patrick Kane: 00:19:13

as well too, I, I had the opportunity to go speak at a cyber conference.

Patrick Kane: 00:19:17

In early April.

Patrick Kane: 00:19:18

And, uh, after I was through with the presentation, I was having a few cyber

Patrick Kane: 00:19:22

conversations and people were commenting on how many facets of the corporate

Patrick Kane: 00:19:27

side or physical side that they were not aware of or didn't understand.

Patrick Kane: 00:19:32

Uh, and they had more of a very, um, a very kind of, uh, uh, like

Patrick Kane: 00:19:38

stereotypical image, I guess, of the physical side, without understanding

Patrick Kane: 00:19:41

all the different, uh, aspects of it.

Phelim: 00:19:44

Yeah, the quote unquote knuckle drags.

Phelim: 00:19:47

Um, exactly which, which I think, I think, you know, the physical security

Phelim: 00:19:50

community has adopted endearingly about itself, but, uh, it was meant,

Phelim: 00:19:55

uh, maybe in a, in a different way.

Phelim: 00:19:57

Um, but, but I think this all makes business sense.

Phelim: 00:20:02

So for one, uh, it makes business sense that I can bundle physical security

Phelim: 00:20:07

solutions with my big Mac and fries.

Phelim: 00:20:10

No, with my, with my, uh, you know, with my cyber solutions,

Phelim: 00:20:14

it makes business sense.

Phelim: 00:20:15

Um, some people like in the physical security world, we, we

Phelim: 00:20:19

have heard anecdotally of large companies using EP as a wed.

Phelim: 00:20:24

To get a bigger contract for some other purpose.

Phelim: 00:20:28

Okay.

Phelim: 00:20:29

Whether that's true or not.

Phelim: 00:20:30

I don't know, but , it, it, it, it wouldn't be beyond the realms

Phelim: 00:20:35

of possibility for somebody to.

Phelim: 00:20:39

Use, let's say cyber pen testing to have a wider managed security

Phelim: 00:20:44

service through the door, which means that it's possible to go into a

Phelim: 00:20:50

corporation and say, do you know what?

Phelim: 00:20:52

Now I can have you covered from travel risk to reputational risk, to cyber

Phelim: 00:20:58

threat intelligence, to pen testing it.

Phelim: 00:21:02

And, and, and, and.

Phelim: 00:21:04

And, and also mark, you mentioned about propaganda but, I think you

Phelim: 00:21:08

will see fusion centers emerge and these fusion centers will be

Phelim: 00:21:12

closed and they'll be like, right.

Phelim: 00:21:15

So regardless of what the noise says, What's happening.

Phelim: 00:21:20

And then they will partner with a physical security.

Phelim: 00:21:22

I mean, is that happening even now?

Phelim: 00:21:25

Cause that, that makes business sense to me, mark.

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:29

Yeah, I'm hearing, that's what I'm hearing like the one stop shop.

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:32

I mean, that's what these fortune 100 to one fortune 500 companies

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:35

want, they want a one stop shop.

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:37

They don't wanna call three different vendors to.

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:40

Two different jobs to make it easier for that CSO.

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:43

They would rather make one phone call to that one company that could take

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:45

care of everything across the board.

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:48

And I, I don't know if companies have adjusted their technology.

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:53

I don't think they're there yet.

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:54

I think they're probably fighting it cuz they have the

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:56

old guard way of doing things.

Mark Ledlow: 00:21:58

And now, you know, we have everybody working remotely.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:00

Well, there's a huge cyber crack right there.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:02

If you're working remote.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:04

We don't, you don't really know what that employee is doing

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:06

at home at the homework site.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:08

You know, you can get, think they're doing everything on the corporate laptop, but

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:11

there's, there's chances for ESP there.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:13

You know, they're working off a wifi from home.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:15

How locked up is that wifi and, you know, people are, are continuing

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:19

to expand the home from work model.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:22

And there's like, I know Jamie diamond came out and said, you're coming back to.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:26

Tesla just, Hey, Hey, if you want a job, come back to work.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:28

Otherwise you're, we're gonna let you go.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:31

And so I think the one stop shop is the future of the industry.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:35

And like Patrick was just saying, this is right now, you know, the manpower is

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:39

lacking cuz a people wanna go get sick.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:41

Cause I was, uh, attached to be, um, support a, a certain bank

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:46

and we just couldn't find anybody that would, was willing to work.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:48

Cause they didn't wanna get sick with.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:50

And so that's gonna be an ongoing issue with the up and coming people

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:55

that work in the executive protection industry, they don't wanna get sick.

Mark Ledlow: 00:22:58

And then the other challenges, too, a lot of corporations are demanding that people

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:03

are vaccine, um, given that vaccine card.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:07

And so a lot of people said, no, no things.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:09

I don't want the vaccine.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:10

So now we have the vaccine issue app, proving you have a shot.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:13

They don't want the shot because they had their free choice.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:15

And so that's, we're running into that for manpower.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:18

And it's, uh, I think all the, you know, all the companies come choose from the

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:23

same pool of male and female EP agents.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:27

They're all, you know, and then the, you know, the highest bidders gonna get the,

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:31

you know, the winning contract and then they're gonna pay the guards, what their,

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:34

you know, what that market value is worth.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:36

But as far as going back to your original question, I think

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:39

is gonna be the one stop shop.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:41

What, whoever that COSO can call.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:45

And get services rendered for a quality price.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:48

He's gonna go to them every time.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:49

And I think it's gonna be up to these, you know, big companies, you know, we

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:53

have, I don't want any names on your program, but we know who they are.

Mark Ledlow: 00:23:56

Can they continue to deliver white glove service to these CSOs and youth corporate?

Mark Ledlow: 00:24:03

I don't know.

Mark Ledlow: 00:24:04

I think things will be changing, evolving, because cyber is rapidly

Mark Ledlow: 00:24:08

changing and we always have ongoing new risks, you know, something's happen.

Mark Ledlow: 00:24:13

Every day around the world.

Mark Ledlow: 00:24:14

So that's kind of my thoughts on that.

Phelim: 00:24:16

so, so we could see the one stop shop or we could see the value added

Phelim: 00:24:22

reseller network stop shop, where, uh, you know, and so maybe that's a good question.

Phelim: 00:24:28

Let's say Patrick, let's say there's a predominantly tech

Phelim: 00:24:31

based company that thinks, do you know what I need travel risk.

Phelim: 00:24:35

I need.

Phelim: 00:24:37

International cargo risk, you know, what should they know before approaching such

Phelim: 00:24:43

a provider to, to form a relationship?

Patrick Kane: 00:24:46

Yeah, I think there's a mix.

Patrick Kane: 00:24:48

I think you could argue either side of it.

Patrick Kane: 00:24:50

I mean, I do agree that there's value to having a one single

Patrick Kane: 00:24:54

point of contact, right?

Patrick Kane: 00:24:56

I mean, from administrative stand.

Patrick Kane: 00:24:58

Invoicing all sorts of other things at the same time.

Patrick Kane: 00:25:01

I think we can, we can also agree that there's a degree of

Patrick Kane: 00:25:04

specialization in these things.

Patrick Kane: 00:25:06

And sometimes the group that tries to be all things to all

Patrick Kane: 00:25:09

people, uh, is gonna fail.

Patrick Kane: 00:25:11

So I think a lot of it's gonna be about subcontracting and strategic

Patrick Kane: 00:25:16

partnering and somebody like, for example, mark, having a good

Patrick Kane: 00:25:19

partner on the cyber side, he can.

Patrick Kane: 00:25:22

When he has a client, who's got that interest.

Patrick Kane: 00:25:24

Right.

Patrick Kane: 00:25:24

So, so he doesn't have to take that on himself or try to learn that, you know,

Patrick Kane: 00:25:29

he and I, we both come from a background where we started off or whatever shooting

Patrick Kane: 00:25:33

guns, or smashing things, breaking things, but we have to know that there's

Patrick Kane: 00:25:37

other things out there beyond that.

Patrick Kane: 00:25:39

And we have to know the people we can call when the issue is an it issue.

Patrick Kane: 00:25:43

And I think to your, your point about the pen testing, I mean,

Patrick Kane: 00:25:47

I think that's one of the things the cyber world is excellent at.

Patrick Kane: 00:25:51

And the question I have is why does it stop there?

Patrick Kane: 00:25:54

I mean, why are we not looking at everything on the physical side

Patrick Kane: 00:25:57

as well from that adversarial, uh, aspect or perspective?

Patrick Kane: 00:26:02

So I think ultimately the idea is you still need to have special.

Patrick Kane: 00:26:06

But maybe, um, through like strategic partnerships and subcontracting

Patrick Kane: 00:26:11

and so forth, you can provide both a single, single contact point and

Patrick Kane: 00:26:15

the expertise at the same time.

Phelim: 00:26:17

So maybe if we, if we draw some strings from all the things

Phelim: 00:26:22

we've been talking about today, maybe.

Phelim: 00:26:26

Okay.

Phelim: 00:26:26

So it's often said, oh no, uh, you wouldn't start off as an

Phelim: 00:26:29

oncologist and then become a GP.

Phelim: 00:26:33

And I, and that's what I don't think using a medical analogy is a good

Phelim: 00:26:36

thing with security because you, you have people who, who, who have been

Phelim: 00:26:40

in the special forces, it's their job and security is a second job for them.

Phelim: 00:26:45

It's not like that's the preparation course.

Phelim: 00:26:47

It's the way in which people enter into the system.

Phelim: 00:26:51

So we're not gonna get away from that.

Phelim: 00:26:53

But could we rather say that eventually we will see people.

Phelim: 00:26:59

Progress to a risk manager, not in an actuarial sense, not like the insurers

Phelim: 00:27:05

that that's their, that's their spiel.

Phelim: 00:27:06

That that's what they do.

Phelim: 00:27:08

But, but do you think as much as an EPA agent might gravitate towards

Phelim: 00:27:11

becoming a consultant and therefore an advisor that's the real convergence,

Phelim: 00:27:17

because you'll find yourself as a risk manager, perhaps among people who

Phelim: 00:27:21

have, who used to be in cyber mark.

Phelim: 00:27:24

Is that a possible future?

Mark Ledlow: 00:27:27

Yeah, I think that's where we're heading.

Mark Ledlow: 00:27:28

I mean, we have to look at, I mean, our biggest employers are corporate.

Mark Ledlow: 00:27:33

And that special forces guy, Al military guy or gal, they need to be

Mark Ledlow: 00:27:39

able to blend in that corporate culture and accept the corporate culture.

Mark Ledlow: 00:27:43

You just can't be, uh, a special forces Navy seal, and jump in with

Mark Ledlow: 00:27:49

random example, let's call it Intel.

Mark Ledlow: 00:27:51

And all of a sudden you have a job because you're a special forces.

Mark Ledlow: 00:27:53

You have to be able to blend in with that corporate culture.

Mark Ledlow: 00:27:56

And that corporate culture may be a little bit different from the military culture.

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:00

And I think that's, um, that's the, the changes in the ships we're seeing

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:04

right now in the industry is, uh, corporations are wanting people with

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:09

medical training and they want people that are, you know, risk adverse.

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:13

How, how are you gonna save me risk?

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:15

Are you a good report writer on threat or threat assessment and risk assessment?

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:19

When I go out and do a detail overseas, I had one, uh, senior level, uh, EP manager.

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:24

I'm not gonna name names, but that person asked me, um, the biggest, she told me

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:28

the biggest concern she has is a lot.

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:30

These EP agents don't know how to write reports.

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:34

They don't know, they know the hard skills, they know the soft skills,

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:37

but they don't know how to write a risk assessment or threat assessment.

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:40

And that's just part of the game.

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:41

That's one component of security and we have to also be, uh, aware,

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:46

not only are we into security, but now we're into safety safety.

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:50

As in we have diseases running around, are you.

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:53

Are you versed in OSHA disease, compliancy, stuff like that.

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:57

Are you into that?

Mark Ledlow: 00:28:58

And I think we're so used to shooting and moving and grieving and ex

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:01

getting our principal off the X.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:03

There's a whole different expectations that corporations

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:06

have for their security program.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:09

Yeah.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:09

They may be called a risk mitigation guy or gal, but I think that terminology

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:13

to be accepted by corporate cultures changing too, they just don't

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:16

want you to be the EP guy for gal.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:18

They want you to.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:19

A more broader experience on a more world view of how their corporation works.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:26

Cuz when you sit down on an interview and you're a vendor, they're

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:29

the first thing they're ask you.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:30

What do you know about my company?

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:32

Oh, I don't know anything about your company.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:33

I'm just a, I'm just a military guy.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:35

What do you know about what is our mission?

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:37

What do we do?

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:38

What do we make?

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:39

And if you're a vendor, if you can answer that question, you

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:43

need, you need to sharpen your ax.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:45

You need to sharpen your pistol and go to go study, go to work and find out

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:50

what are you doing in this industry?

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:51

Yeah.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:51

This industry can be very lucrative and the money can be there.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:55

You need to know more about your client than just, uh, yourself.

Mark Ledlow: 00:29:58

You need to study your client inside and out to find out where the risks are.

Mark Ledlow: 00:30:01

It's a great, great question.

Phelim: 00:30:03

Well then hopefully that's a good note to finish on because I think the risk

Phelim: 00:30:07

manager of the future is more accessible.

Phelim: 00:30:10

Isn't it?

Phelim: 00:30:11

It's just better as a trusted advisor, that terminology works across cyber.

Phelim: 00:30:15

It works across physical and yeah.

Phelim: 00:30:19

Value added reseller that works across physical that works across cyber.

Phelim: 00:30:23

And, and it just takes the sting out of the alien nature of some other people

Phelim: 00:30:29

and you know, people in cyber, you need to understand that even within

Phelim: 00:30:33

physical security, there's different, uh, communities that don't know each other,

Phelim: 00:30:37

like the loss prevention community.

Phelim: 00:30:39

Do not talk so much to executive protection.

Phelim: 00:30:42

Um, the gambling, uh, security community, very, very tight knit, uh, group.

Phelim: 00:30:47

Uh, don't talk so much to the healthcare security group.

Phelim: 00:30:50

Uh, don't talk to the maritime security group.

Phelim: 00:30:52

You know, it, it's not, it's not like alien, group are, are, are unusual.

Phelim: 00:30:58

They exist everywhere.

Phelim: 00:30:59

So perhaps by having a risk manager, a mindset, we can.

Phelim: 00:31:04

Or at least that's my hope.

Phelim: 00:31:06

Hope

Mark Ledlow: 00:31:06

so

Phelim: 00:31:07

oh, well, well, mark and Patrick, thanks for coming on let's give you

Phelim: 00:31:10

a big virtual rental applause of all.

Phelim: 00:31:12

Thank you.

Phelim: 00:31:13

Thanks.