Episode 45

Firearms in EP - An International Perspective | Orlando "Andy" Wilson

If we should train as we fight, where does firearms proficiency sit for protectors both in and outside jurisdictions where carrying one is even a possibility? We are delighted to finally welcome longtime Circuit Magazine Contributor and Firearms expert Orlando "Andy" Wilson to the podcast to discuss:

  • Jurisdictional challenges when carrying a firearm both in the United States and internationally
  • Best or better practice when handling concealed weapons
  • The balance between hobbyist competition shooting and firearms skills relevant to EP
  • Possibilities for effective firearms and ammunition training
  • Reputational risk from firearms incidents

About Orlando

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The Circuit team is:

  • Elijah Shaw
  • Jon Moss
  • Shaun West
  • Phelim Rowe

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Transcript
Orlando Wilson:

If you're in the closed protection business, wherever

Orlando Wilson:

you're going, of course you're doing your threat assessments, but part of

Orlando Wilson:

your threat assessment is also the legalities of where you're going.

Orlando Wilson:

Can you carry firearms well?

Orlando Wilson:

What type of firearms?

Orlando Wilson:

What type of ammunition?

Orlando Wilson:

Are there restrictions on magazines?

Orlando Wilson:

Are there restrictions on the type of ammunition

Phelim Rowe:

you can carry?

Phelim Rowe:

Firearms proficiency in executive protection.

Phelim Rowe:

A slightly more international perspective.

Phelim Rowe:

Today we are very fortunate to welcome longtime Circuit Magazine contributor

Phelim Rowe:

Orlando Wilson to the podcast.

Phelim Rowe:

I'm here with John

Phelim Rowe:

Moss.

Phelim Rowe:

Why is this such an emotive topic,

Phelim Rowe:

especially

Phelim Rowe:

international?

Jon Moss:

Uh, we have opened to kind of worms here, haven't we?

Jon Moss:

This is,

Jon Moss:

uh, what we're almost two years into the podcast, and

Jon Moss:

I think this is the first time we've properly

Jon Moss:

taken this subject on.

Jon Moss:

Uh, look, you know,

Jon Moss:

it's, um, some people are really passionate about this.

Jon Moss:

Tr transcends, work And and it goes into, personal matters,

Jon Moss:

people's own, belief structures.

Jon Moss:

And I don't think that's the purpose of the podcast today.

Jon Moss:

I think we are just here to discuss the role, of firearms within side protection.

Jon Moss:

And there's, you know, for sure there's a role.

Jon Moss:

And I think it's gonna be interesting to see with our

Jon Moss:

guests today, who you know,

Jon Moss:

is pretty much dedicated,

Jon Moss:

the majority of his.

Jon Moss:

Career in private security towards, , the safe and proficient training of firearms.

Jon Moss:

So it's gonna be really interesting

Jon Moss:

to get Orlando's

Jon Moss:

perspective.

Jon Moss:

Uh, I think all long

Jon Moss:

term readers of the circuit will already be familiar with a lot of,

Jon Moss:

Orlando's writing.

Jon Moss:

And so this should make for

Jon Moss:

a really good episode.

Phelim Rowe:

Yes.

Phelim Rowe:

I, I, I agree.

Phelim Rowe:

Absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

Cause if you are, uh, a US

Phelim Rowe:

based protector and you are either covert or over,

Phelim Rowe:

you know, carry armed, right?

Phelim Rowe:

Then you have a way of Operating And and that's not quite what we're looking at.

Phelim Rowe:

We are

Phelim Rowe:

looking at the distinction between possibly international

Phelim Rowe:

operators who may never

Phelim Rowe:

need, uh, firearms proficiency and

Phelim Rowe:

uh, those who, who, who might, and,

Phelim Rowe:

and I think that's an interesting distinction to make because otherwise

Phelim Rowe:

we get into quite a political.

Phelim Rowe:

I think

Phelim Rowe:

that, uh, the, the, the, you know, the way in which we can approach

Phelim Rowe:

this could look at, uh,

Phelim Rowe:

hobbyists, uh, cause you know,

Phelim Rowe:

everyone has a hobby.

Phelim Rowe:

Everyone likes, uh, or many people like, uh, going down the

Phelim Rowe:

range, and real, uh,

Phelim Rowe:

prospective, um, employment, uh, needs.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and I would argue, and I wonder what you think, John, that it's really

Phelim Rowe:

important to do that because otherwise you'll be spending money that you should

Phelim Rowe:

otherwise spend On real employable.

Phelim Rowe:

On something that is

Phelim Rowe:

no doubt entertaining and fulfilling, but not

Phelim Rowe:

quite what you're gonna need to get the next

Phelim Rowe:

job.

Phelim Rowe:

What do you think?

Jon Moss:

Yeah, well it,

Jon Moss:

I mean,

Jon Moss:

that's interesting in itself because when you start, you know, assigning your c.

Jon Moss:

D dollars at the start of the year and saying, where am I gonna

Jon Moss:

invest in my training this year?

Jon Moss:

You should be putting that money to work.

Jon Moss:

That's my view.

Jon Moss:

, you should be adding value to yourself, keeping yourself proficient

Jon Moss:

in all of the areas that you are required to do.

Jon Moss:

You know,

Jon Moss:

keep up the, the basic skills ticking the boxes that you need to keep

Jon Moss:

operating in, depending on, what

Jon Moss:

country you're in.

Jon Moss:

And then in addition to

Jon Moss:

that, you've got a lot of supplementary skills, the kind of things that we've

Jon Moss:

been discussing recently on the podcast,

Jon Moss:

About.

Jon Moss:

How to make yourself a valuable operator in this modern world,

Jon Moss:

plus, , you're also trying to,

Jon Moss:

Distinguish yourself and find

Jon Moss:

your own lane.

Jon Moss:

And, and.

Jon Moss:

It's fine to be a hobbyist as well.

Jon Moss:

It's fine to invest money in things that are just a hobby and a passion for

Jon Moss:

you and if

Jon Moss:

it helps keep you sharp, if it helps keep the rest of your skills, at a high

Jon Moss:

level, then I've got no problem

Jon Moss:

with that.

Jon Moss:

But I guess, I think the message

Jon Moss:

is, do you really want to be focusing all your attentions on

Jon Moss:

that ahead of, other skills that are perhaps gonna be

Jon Moss:

better for your employability?

Phelim Rowe:

Which is very ver you know, it's a fair point.

Phelim Rowe:

And hey, we don't want to

Phelim Rowe:

be joy killers and you know, we, we do.

Phelim Rowe:

Ourselves, probably enjoy, uh, this, uh, you know, down the range as well.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and it, and it is important, uh,

Phelim Rowe:

And, and there's great benefits, , as John said, of

Phelim Rowe:

course mentally, uh, for focusing

Phelim Rowe:

and, and achieving something like pistol shooting or, or competition, shooting.

Phelim Rowe:

Absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

However, let's get into it a slightly more international perspective.

Phelim Rowe:

Obviously long-term contributor to the

Phelim Rowe:

Circuit Magazine uh, let's hear from the man, him.

Phelim Rowe:

Orlando Wilson, and we're gonna look at firearms in executive protection.

Phelim Rowe:

Firearms in.

Phelim Rowe:

Protection.

Phelim Rowe:

Today, we're gonna do a deep dive with the one and only Orlando Wilson

Phelim Rowe:

Security consultant and great friend of the Circuit Magazine many times.

Phelim Rowe:

Contributor is a great pleasure to have you on.

Phelim Rowe:

How are you doing?

Phelim Rowe:

Good

Orlando Wilson:

mate, yourself.

Orlando Wilson:

How you been

Phelim Rowe:

having a great time?

Phelim Rowe:

Lots and lots of events, lots of things going on.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but, but firearms seems like a topic that would probably excite half of our

Phelim Rowe:

community who can use firearms and half of them that can't probably go, well, that

Phelim Rowe:

seems interesting, but I'd be interested maybe to learn how it applies to my role.

Phelim Rowe:

So, so let's get into, What's the problem we're trying to solve with this topic?

Phelim Rowe:

What, where are we with the state of firearms in EP today?

Phelim Rowe:

The thing is, with firearms,

Orlando Wilson:

there's a lot of misconceptions about the use of

Orlando Wilson:

firearms in the close protection executive protection world.

Orlando Wilson:

What a lot of people don't realize is the vast majority of close

Orlando Wilson:

protection jobs are, are unarmed.

Orlando Wilson:

As you know, in Europe, in uk, it's virtually impossible for civilians.

Orlando Wilson:

It's impossible for civilians to work.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, in Europe there are certain countries where people can work armed, but they're

Orlando Wilson:

under very, very stringent regulations.

Orlando Wilson:

In the US it's a lot easier to work armed and get hold of firearms, but when you're

Orlando Wilson:

traveling around, if you're traveling with clients, it's, most of the close

Orlando Wilson:

protection jobs are going to be unarmed.

Orlando Wilson:

I find it funny and strange, funny, strange, et cetera.

Orlando Wilson:

When you see a lot of people, when they're thinking about close protection,

Orlando Wilson:

all they're thinking about is armed guards firearms, where it's limited.

Orlando Wilson:

Very, very

Phelim Rowe:

limited.

Phelim Rowe:

And so obviously I'm delighted to have you on Great, uh, long term contributor,

Phelim Rowe:

but, but where does your passion for the topic of firearms sort of come from?

Phelim Rowe:

Um,

Orlando Wilson:

Start off with, I was in the, I've always liked

Orlando Wilson:

guns, even when I was a kid.

Orlando Wilson:

I ended up joining the military, British military.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, we started doing events in Eastern Europe in the nineties, firearms events.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, at that time I was mainly doing stuff in Lavia.

Orlando Wilson:

I then moved to US and firearms training became part of my business.

Orlando Wilson:

So, When I was in the US I worked armed.

Orlando Wilson:

I've also provide firearms training courses in the us,

Orlando Wilson:

Caribbean, Latin America, middle East, et cetera, et cetera.

Orlando Wilson:

So to me, guns are tools and they are part of the business.

Orlando Wilson:

I think if you're working internationally, you should know how to use them,

Orlando Wilson:

but they're, again, they're not e.

Phelim Rowe:

Okay.

Phelim Rowe:

Okay.

Phelim Rowe:

I, I like that.

Phelim Rowe:

And hopefully that will, that'll create a debate already in our listenership.

Phelim Rowe:

Oh, oh, yes, I can hear it right now.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but what about the completely uninitiated, the protector who's never

Phelim Rowe:

had to work with firearms before?

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, what, what should they better understand?

Orlando Wilson:

Well, the thing is with firearms, you cannot just go and do, uh,

Orlando Wilson:

a few day course and become competent.

Orlando Wilson:

It's the same as I put it in.

Orlando Wilson:

It's the same as martial.

Orlando Wilson:

If to become competent, you have to practice, practice, and practice.

Orlando Wilson:

There's no one fix of going and doing a two week course and walking out a firearms

Orlando Wilson:

expert because again, there's that many different types of firearms out there

Orlando Wilson:

that again, most operate the same way.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, the safety rules should be the same, but I've come across guns in the

Orlando Wilson:

US or I've come across guns in various places I've never seen before, and

Orlando Wilson:

trying to work out how to strip the things down, et cetera is difficult.

Orlando Wilson:

So firearms is one of those business, it's a continually learning process

Orlando Wilson:

and again, as far as the training is concerned, you have to have the muscle.

Orlando Wilson:

you have to know when you pick the weapon up to keep your finger off the trigger.

Orlando Wilson:

Most people, when they're not used to firearms, the first thing they do when

Orlando Wilson:

they pick a gun up is pull the trigger and it's building up that muscle memory.

Orlando Wilson:

And I think one of the issues today, especially in the close protection

Orlando Wilson:

world, executive protection world, is people offering quick fit,

Orlando Wilson:

quick fix courses for firearms.

Orlando Wilson:

People are just wasting their money because again, you are not

Orlando Wilson:

gonna learn, become competent with firearms over a two week.

Orlando Wilson:

Or a few day period.

Phelim Rowe:

All right, so let's address a, a common parlance sort of phrase where,

Phelim Rowe:

where people are almost so certain that it is the truth that, that I'm interested

Phelim Rowe:

in sort of throwing it out there.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, it, it sort of goes a bit like this.

Phelim Rowe:

If you have to draw your firearm, you've bleeped up.

Phelim Rowe:

It's a massive, massive failure.

Phelim Rowe:

Is that actually the case in, in all cases?

Orlando Wilson:

I would say pulling a firearm is an absolute last resort,

Orlando Wilson:

and this is where again, it comes into, I see people, and I think, I'm

Orlando Wilson:

sure I've said it somewhere, where if things go bad, you've missed something.

Orlando Wilson:

A lot of times you have missed something, but there again, you've

Orlando Wilson:

got the things that can go bad on the street, the things you cannot an.

Orlando Wilson:

The things or working in an environment where you don't have

Orlando Wilson:

control of that environment.

Orlando Wilson:

And I can think of a few cases where it's like things go bad.

Orlando Wilson:

You just happen to be there, so you're gonna have to defend yourself.

Orlando Wilson:

Yes.

Orlando Wilson:

Pulling a farm is a last resort.

Orlando Wilson:

And I think a lot of people, especially in the US and I'm not bashing the Yanks,

Orlando Wilson:

um, instead of trying to deescalate a situation, they go straight to firearm.

Orlando Wilson:

I've seen this with people when I've been doing courses, et cetera.

Orlando Wilson:

If somebody's carrying a firearm, if there's a problem, the first thing

Orlando Wilson:

they're gonna do is go for that firearm.

Orlando Wilson:

If they're carrying even, let's say pepper spray an extendable bat.

Orlando Wilson:

If there's an issue, they're gonna go straight to that weapon

Orlando Wilson:

instead of thinking how deescalate.

Orlando Wilson:

So to me, again, it is not just learning how to use the firearms, and this is

Orlando Wilson:

one thing I have issues with these days.

Orlando Wilson:

A lot of people, it's all competition shooting.

Orlando Wilson:

The majority of the stuff that's been thrown into being classed

Orlando Wilson:

as defensive shooting these days is competition shooting.

Orlando Wilson:

Very few people talk about you have to, the thing, it's getting

Orlando Wilson:

to the point of drawing that.

Orlando Wilson:

There's a lot that needs to go on and people need to be taught about how

Orlando Wilson:

to deescalate, how to be streetwise, how to be aware of what's going on

Orlando Wilson:

around you, how to avoid the problem.

Orlando Wilson:

And it's not just about carrying a gun and shooting people.

Orlando Wilson:

That is an absolute last resort.

Orlando Wilson:

But again, the issue is these days, and we mentioned something about this just

Orlando Wilson:

now, people want to be entertained and it's more fun running around shooting

Orlando Wilson:

guns than is sat down actually learning.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, what it takes to avoid a problem and if you're in a potentially hostile

Orlando Wilson:

situation, how to deescalate before in a firearm or any type of weapon.

Phelim Rowe:

Absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

Cause I could well imagine as a, as a layperson, a, a show of force

Phelim Rowe:

is not a show of force in the way that the person imagines it.

Phelim Rowe:

It's a, it's a sort of a , a red flag to a bull.

Phelim Rowe:

In some

Orlando Wilson:

places it can escalate, and this is where it's like, In a lot

Orlando Wilson:

of the states, in the US it's, you cannot use a gun to intimidate people

Orlando Wilson:

and the laws change all the time.

Orlando Wilson:

You've got how many different states where, how many did different

Orlando Wilson:

rules, but you cannot use a gun.

Orlando Wilson:

I think they changed the law in the state of Florida, but the law there

Orlando Wilson:

was, you could not use a gun to threaten somebody if you used the, if you

Orlando Wilson:

pulled a firearm, you're the shoot.

Orlando Wilson:

And I know other people say, we can't say shoot to kill.

Orlando Wilson:

Well, you had to shoot to kill.

Orlando Wilson:

You couldn't shoot to hurt people.

Orlando Wilson:

Cause.

Orlando Wilson:

It could be classed as you are torturing the person, you're

Orlando Wilson:

not in fear for your safety.

Orlando Wilson:

So again, this is where just pulling a gun out and flashing it,

Orlando Wilson:

one can escalate the situation.

Orlando Wilson:

And two, you could be breaking the law.

Orlando Wilson:

So you have to understand the laws of the country you're in, in the us, the state

Orlando Wilson:

you're in, because they vary greatly.

Orlando Wilson:

But.

Orlando Wilson:

I tell people, if you pull a gun, use it.

Orlando Wilson:

Otherwise, don't pull the gun.

Orlando Wilson:

The gun stays holster.

Orlando Wilson:

That's it, and you do everything possible to avoid the problem.

Orlando Wilson:

Don't get in the situation in the first place.

Phelim Rowe:

And so you, you alluded to some of the training out there that

Phelim Rowe:

yeah, may well be fun, but it may be more akin to competition shooting and

Phelim Rowe:

targets and clay pigeons and things.

Phelim Rowe:

So, so how could one look at a curriculum and go, yeah, this is actually legit.

Phelim Rowe:

What, what are some of the features they should look for?

Phelim Rowe:

I would

Orlando Wilson:

say the first thing I wanna look at is what is, what is

Orlando Wilson:

the experience of the instructor?

Orlando Wilson:

Because there's a lot of, let me ask you a question now.

Orlando Wilson:

You might know the answer.

Orlando Wilson:

How long do you think it takes to become an nra, national Rifle

Orlando Wilson:

Association Pistol instructor?

Orlando Wilson:

How long?

Phelim Rowe:

I would hope 10,000 hours, but I, I, I, I don't know.

Orlando Wilson:

It's a one day course.

Orlando Wilson:

Oh, . Okay.

Orlando Wilson:

So.

Orlando Wilson:

I've done the qualifications years ago because I taught the

Orlando Wilson:

Florida concealed weapons permit.

Orlando Wilson:

Its business.

Orlando Wilson:

I needed that to be able to teach the courses and get

Orlando Wilson:

insurance and everything else.

Orlando Wilson:

But there's how many people out there saying they're firearms instructors

Orlando Wilson:

that's possibly done a one day course and maybe done a couple of courses

Orlando Wilson:

with some other people and that's it.

Orlando Wilson:

So before you look at anything, what is the experience of the instructor?

Orlando Wilson:

Um, just being in the military, I would say it helps.

Orlando Wilson:

But again, most militaries are not hot on using handguns.

Orlando Wilson:

I know how many people that's been in the military how many years, and once

Orlando Wilson:

we talk about shotguns, which are very prevalent weapon in the firearms world,

Orlando Wilson:

they have no clue about shotguns.

Orlando Wilson:

So the first thing I would do is look at the qualifications and

Orlando Wilson:

experience of the instructor.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, if you're looking at the curriculum, all curriculums

Orlando Wilson:

should start off with basic.

Orlando Wilson:

And safety should be hammered home from day one all the way throughout the course.

Orlando Wilson:

But if we're talking about skills for executive protection, then you

Orlando Wilson:

need to be, um, I put an emphasis on instinctive shooting, shooting from

Orlando Wilson:

the hip, shooting at close quarters.

Orlando Wilson:

But we also work people out shooting at distance out to a hundred meters

Orlando Wilson:

because again, and I, this is something where a lot of people say, you

Orlando Wilson:

cannot shoot out to hundred meters.

Orlando Wilson:

You can.

Orlando Wilson:

We do it on our courses.

Orlando Wilson:

And the reason being, People say, but if you're shooting at that

Orlando Wilson:

distance, you should be using a long gun assault rifle, et cetera.

Orlando Wilson:

Well, in most places, you cannot carry an assault rifle for security purposes.

Orlando Wilson:

You're stuck with pistols and shotguns.

Orlando Wilson:

So again, if all you have is a pistol, You need to know the maximum capabilities of

Orlando Wilson:

that pistol and also your capabilities, because again, if you are, say a

Orlando Wilson:

hostile environment, you got bad guys a hundred meters away, you are gonna

Orlando Wilson:

wait for them to get within 15 yards of you or 15 meters, or if you can shoot

Orlando Wilson:

a distance, you can put some rounds towards them to keep the heads down so

Orlando Wilson:

you can evacuate, et cetera, cetera.

Orlando Wilson:

Yeah, so again, once you get into the firearms training, there's a lot to.

Orlando Wilson:

, you have to be able, you have to understand the safety, you have to

Orlando Wilson:

understand the weapons, you have to understand how to shoot up close,

Orlando Wilson:

and also how to shoot at distance.

Phelim Rowe:

Mm.

Phelim Rowe:

And of course, yeah, part, part, part of that deescalation, even whilst

Phelim Rowe:

escalated, I suppose, is putting distance between yourself and the other,

Orlando Wilson:

avoid the problem.

Orlando Wilson:

If you can avoid the problem again, and this is what I think people don't realize,

Orlando Wilson:

as we said earlier, it's entertainment, it's playing games, it's being having a

Orlando Wilson:

bit of a fun with people, dress up, they look cool, they put on their pretend

Orlando Wilson:

army gear and play security contractor.

Orlando Wilson:

The situation on the street is if you're involved in a shooting, somebody's gonna

Orlando Wilson:

die or go to hospital and somebody's gonna go to jail in most places.

Orlando Wilson:

Even in the US, if you are involved in a shooting, in most states, that's

Orlando Wilson:

gonna cost you money cuz you're gonna have to get a lawyer involved

Orlando Wilson:

in other countries throughout.

Orlando Wilson:

I know how many countries in Europe, even if a cop is involved in the

Orlando Wilson:

shooting, they're arrested straight away.

Orlando Wilson:

If you are a civilian and you're involved in the shooting and you shoot and kill

Orlando Wilson:

somebody, you got big legal problems.

Orlando Wilson:

I don't think people understand the consequences.

Orlando Wilson:

It's okay having fun with guns.

Orlando Wilson:

But they don't understand the consequences.

Orlando Wilson:

Or if you're involved in a shooting, you could end up dead.

Orlando Wilson:

Somebody else could end up dead.

Orlando Wilson:

You could end up in a wheelchair for the rest of your life, or you could end

Orlando Wilson:

up in jail for the rest of your life.

Orlando Wilson:

And I think that's the main thing that's missing.

Orlando Wilson:

Everybody wants to play games, but they don't wanna understand

Orlando Wilson:

the realities of carrying

Phelim Rowe:

firearms.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and, and so does that divide a lot of people?

Phelim Rowe:

Two categories.

Phelim Rowe:

People with firearms who arely thinking, is it time for me to deploy it?

Phelim Rowe:

And those who don't have it, and have to rely on other skills, you know, being,

Phelim Rowe:

being a, being a, a martial artist, having another type of, uh, weapon

Phelim Rowe:

of opportunity or, or something else.

Phelim Rowe:

Yeah, as I

Orlando Wilson:

said, it's like if we're talking purely about close

Orlando Wilson:

protection, most international close protection jobs are un.

Orlando Wilson:

So you have to rely on, uh, being aware of your environment.

Orlando Wilson:

And I tell people, you've got weapons around you all the time.

Orlando Wilson:

If you can understand how to improvise anything as a weapon.

Orlando Wilson:

And I think there's been debates in how many of these, uh, I've

Orlando Wilson:

seen online debates about should, uh, close protection, executive

Orlando Wilson:

protection personnel, uh, know how to know self defense.

Orlando Wilson:

Yeah, you have to a hundred percent.

Orlando Wilson:

Cause it's part of the.

Orlando Wilson:

And again, I know I can think of how many times you end up in scuffles

Orlando Wilson:

because again, it is the things that happen on the street, the things

Orlando Wilson:

you cannot predict that happen.

Orlando Wilson:

So again, the use of force be armed or unarmed.

Orlando Wilson:

I say especially the unarmed side, is essential for close protection.

Phelim Rowe:

And so conversely, I think we, we've all seen the videos of people

Phelim Rowe:

who seem to come up with miraculous ways of escaping, uh, having a gun

Phelim Rowe:

pointed in their face, um, where I don't think those videos are, are good and

Phelim Rowe:

representative of what could be done.

Phelim Rowe:

But is there any self-defense techniques or any methodologies

Phelim Rowe:

that people should look into?

Phelim Rowe:

Or is it literally run away?

Phelim Rowe:

If so,

Orlando Wilson:

this thing is.

Orlando Wilson:

This is back down to, and one of my good friends outta Mexico,

Orlando Wilson:

Jerry , and we've, he's, he was top fighter, top martial arts guy.

Orlando Wilson:

He is now a security manager, et cetera.

Orlando Wilson:

I've worked with him how many times, a good friend of mine and we've had

Orlando Wilson:

this discussion about the martial arts work and I said to him about a lot

Orlando Wilson:

of these techniques and he's, he's a real guy and he said, yeah, it is bs.

Orlando Wilson:

But people have to keep coming up with techniques to bring, for

Orlando Wilson:

people to keep coming back to their.

Orlando Wilson:

So even with the firearms world, it's the same with one thing that annoys me.

Orlando Wilson:

Knife defense.

Orlando Wilson:

If somebody knows how to use a knife, you're screwed.

Orlando Wilson:

And what a lot of people are teaching for knife defense is

Orlando Wilson:

complete bs, complete another bs.

Orlando Wilson:

We can do a class however long and you can walk out thinking you

Orlando Wilson:

actually know what you're doing.

Orlando Wilson:

If you come across some little kids, some gypsy kid that knows how to,

Orlando Wilson:

how to use a knife, you're screwed.

Orlando Wilson:

You're gonna get cut up.

Orlando Wilson:

So again, If somebody's pointing a gun at you and they know what they're doing,

Orlando Wilson:

they're not gonna allow you to get close enough to them to take the gun off them.

Orlando Wilson:

They'll shoot you.

Orlando Wilson:

And again, if you look at a lot of a client, but the mentality of

Orlando Wilson:

a lot of criminals, especially if we're talking about Latin America,

Orlando Wilson:

Mexico, et cetera, they'll kill you.

Orlando Wilson:

It's not a game.

Orlando Wilson:

It's not roll around on the mats and the nice comy dojo.

Orlando Wilson:

. If you meet somebody on the street, they're pointing a gun at you.

Orlando Wilson:

The chances are you do as you're told or you're gonna get killed.

Orlando Wilson:

Are there things you can do?

Orlando Wilson:

Well again, a lot of this will come into what we teach is understanding

Orlando Wilson:

the person's body language, maximum use of distractions, and then when you

Orlando Wilson:

strike, you strike to end the situation.

Orlando Wilson:

But a lot of what I see out there is just techniques.

Orlando Wilson:

You're gonna get killed.

Orlando Wilson:

All it takes is a little bit of pressure on that trigger and you are, you are shot.

Orlando Wilson:

, that's it.

Phelim Rowe:

Mm-hmm.

Phelim Rowe:

, which I, which I think, you know, obviously is something that I

Phelim Rowe:

think we all gut have a gut feeling when we see those Instagram videos

Phelim Rowe:

that it's probably not gonna work.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but, but, but I think it's important to bring up, um, so we,

Phelim Rowe:

we've touched on legality and, and sort of, um, Areas, uh, where, where

Phelim Rowe:

one could or could not practice.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, we've touched on the actual firearms you'll have access to,

Phelim Rowe:

and we've, we've touched on the sort of the self-defense side.

Phelim Rowe:

Is there any merit looking at ammunition and, uh, that type.

Phelim Rowe:

Of topic because, because there is a lot of, uh, talk around hollow points

Phelim Rowe:

and around armor piercing, uh, things, especially when I used to do my military

Phelim Rowe:

events, we would look at B six B seven vehicles and uh, suddenly when

Phelim Rowe:

someone would come up with a brand new something tipped something and, you

Phelim Rowe:

know, is there anything interesting there to explore in the EP world?

Orlando Wilson:

Yeah, and again, a lot of it depends on where you

Orlando Wilson:

are and what's legal because.

Orlando Wilson:

Even within the US in some states it's legal to carry hollow points.

Orlando Wilson:

In some states it's illegal to carry hollow points.

Orlando Wilson:

I'll stick my neck out here.

Orlando Wilson:

And I think in the state of New Jersey, hollow points are illegal for civilians.

Orlando Wilson:

I think law enforcement can carry them, but if you are caught with a hollow

Orlando Wilson:

point, you're gonna have big problems, I think, and I'm sure people will

Orlando Wilson:

pop up and correct me if I'm wrong.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, so.

Orlando Wilson:

I see a lot of people saying, oh, you should carry this type of ammunition,

Orlando Wilson:

you should carry whatever ammunition.

Orlando Wilson:

It depends where you are and it depends what's legal in the US for pistols.

Orlando Wilson:

Uh, I under, I believe Arm and Pearson ammunition is now legal.

Orlando Wilson:

They've.

Orlando Wilson:

The green tips.

Orlando Wilson:

That was military grade arm steel cord ammunition.

Orlando Wilson:

I think they banned those also because there, there's too many of the AR 15

Orlando Wilson:

carbines now that are classed as pistols.

Orlando Wilson:

Ah, I tell people when I was, again, legally carrying in the US,

Orlando Wilson:

I always mixed up my ammunition.

Orlando Wilson:

Follow 0.4, middle jacket, hollow 0.4, middle.

Orlando Wilson:

People, if you don't know what a hollow point does, when a hollow

Orlando Wilson:

point hits something, it expands its person, hits an object, it expands

Orlando Wilson:

and it doesn't over penetrate.

Orlando Wilson:

This is where in some places this looks upon as being safer

Orlando Wilson:

than four metal jacket rounds.

Orlando Wilson:

But the people that's anti-gun come out and say, well, hollow

Orlando Wilson:

points are dumb, dumb bullets.

Orlando Wilson:

They do, they cause too much trauma when they hit somebody, et cetera.

Orlando Wilson:

When other places, they're looked upon as being safer because they

Orlando Wilson:

do not over penetrate the target.

Orlando Wilson:

I carried hollow point and four jacket mixed rounds, up the four jacket rounds,

Orlando Wilson:

solid lead rounds, copper jacket.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, they penetrate.

Orlando Wilson:

So if I had to shoot through cover, shoot into a car, shoot through drywall,

Orlando Wilson:

et cetera, that formal jacket round would penetrate better than the ho.

Orlando Wilson:

And even if we're talking about shooting for self defense, if you're

Orlando Wilson:

shooting into a person, personally, I'd want rounds that's gonna penetrate

Orlando Wilson:

deeper as well as the hollow points.

Orlando Wilson:

It's gonna cause more.

Orlando Wilson:

So again, a lot of this, when we talk about ammunition in the US, we can,

Orlando Wilson:

we can talk about this, we can get the ammunition and I don't think that you

Orlando Wilson:

can, I think they've stopped selling, uh, pistol ammunition at Walmart.

Orlando Wilson:

But in the day, you could go to Walmart and buy whatever you wanted, right?

Orlando Wilson:

But in a lot of places, you have to look into the legalities of

Orlando Wilson:

what ammunition is legal carry.

Orlando Wilson:

If you're caught with a hollow point, you're gonna have big problems.

Orlando Wilson:

And again, if you're working somewhere where you've only.

Orlando Wilson:

Four jacket rounds, that's what you're gonna have to work with.

Orlando Wilson:

That's it.

Orlando Wilson:

But it's understanding the capabilities of those rounds.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and should I, as a, as a layperson, you know, um, expect,

Phelim Rowe:

let's say I, I was a qualified EP professional, uh, like our listeners,

Phelim Rowe:

and I've never worked with firearms before, but somehow I got on a task

Phelim Rowe:

in a jurisdiction that it was legal.

Phelim Rowe:

Are they gonna supply.

Phelim Rowe:

With my equipment or am I gonna be expected to piece it all together myself?

Phelim Rowe:

So is this even a problem that the operator's gotta

Orlando Wilson:

worry about?

Orlando Wilson:

Well, this is the thing.

Orlando Wilson:

You're not gonna be able to do it yourself.

Orlando Wilson:

If you're in uk, you can't buy firearms.

Orlando Wilson:

There are ways, I think it's a Section five license or something.

Orlando Wilson:

I'm sure people correct me, you could get a dealer's license in uk, but

Orlando Wilson:

that's very, very difficult to get and a lot of background checks very.

Orlando Wilson:

And again, I'm sure the police will be knocking on your door on a regular basis

Orlando Wilson:

to check your inventory, um, in the us.

Orlando Wilson:

Even when I was, when I had guys working there for me, whatever, I expected

Orlando Wilson:

people to bring their own firearms.

Orlando Wilson:

Everybody should own a

Phelim Rowe:

gun.

Phelim Rowe:

And would you wanna expect it?

Phelim Rowe:

Would you, you wanna go?

Phelim Rowe:

Okay.

Phelim Rowe:

What have you brought to the party?

Phelim Rowe:

Oh, you've brought an Uzi.

Phelim Rowe:

That's not funny.

Phelim Rowe:

And Oh, you've brought something a bit more sensible.

Phelim Rowe:

I I, is that the kind of

Orlando Wilson:

conversation?

Orlando Wilson:

Yeah.

Orlando Wilson:

If we look at it from the US perspective that you can only use

Orlando Wilson:

certain firearms within the security.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, I was in Florida for how many years.

Orlando Wilson:

Once upon a time, security guards, private investigators, et cetera,

Orlando Wilson:

private investigators to carry semi-automatics, uh, security

Orlando Wilson:

guards still had to carry revolvers.

Orlando Wilson:

Now I think they've changed it over to, for security purposes.

Orlando Wilson:

Whatever gun you qualify with is the gun you have to carry.

Orlando Wilson:

So if you qualify with a 45 semi, that's the gun you're gonna have to carry.

Orlando Wilson:

If you want to carry other firearms, then you have to go to the range

Orlando Wilson:

and qualify with those guns.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, when guys with me brought along their own firearms, yeah, everybody that worked

Orlando Wilson:

with me, I'd been to the range before.

Orlando Wilson:

They tended to have done my courses before, so I knew they were okay.

Orlando Wilson:

But yeah, I would check weapons, ammunition to make sure they're

Orlando Wilson:

not carrying any ammunition that's, that could get them

Phelim Rowe:

into.

Phelim Rowe:

Or, or something like a a, a piece of equipment.

Phelim Rowe:

Seemingly innocuous, but it's a bump stop.

Orlando Wilson:

So let me tell you a quick, if you got two minutes,

Orlando Wilson:

I'll, I'll take a quick story.

Orlando Wilson:

An associate of mine I used to deal with years ago on one of the islands

Orlando Wilson:

in the Caribbean, there was a guy there, former cop, got involved in

Orlando Wilson:

a shooting shot, a guy, a hundred percent justifiable shooting.

Orlando Wilson:

When the body went to autopsy, they pulled out hollow points.

Orlando Wilson:

The police had not authorized anybody to bring hollow points in on into the island.

Orlando Wilson:

There'd been no import permits.

Orlando Wilson:

So even though the guy shot the guy a hundred percent justifiable

Orlando Wilson:

shooting, he ended up being charged with importing a legal ammunition.

Orlando Wilson:

Hmm.

Orlando Wilson:

So again, this is where you have to be careful because something like that,

Orlando Wilson:

if you use Hollow point where you shouldn't have hollow points, yeah.

Orlando Wilson:

You might get away with the shooting.

Orlando Wilson:

You can still have to be in charged with a crime.

Orlando Wilson:

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and, and, and that does paint an important picture

Phelim Rowe:

because I guess, I guess it's gonna be up to you to prevent yourself

Phelim Rowe:

from getting charged and up to your team for making sure that you've.

Phelim Rowe:

Half of the regulations that you need covered, but at the end of the day,

Phelim Rowe:

it feels like you are on your own.

Orlando Wilson:

It's down to you, but again, this is back down to if you're

Orlando Wilson:

in the close protection business, wherever you're going, of course you're

Orlando Wilson:

doing your threat assessments, but part of your threat assessment is also

Orlando Wilson:

the legalities of where you're going.

Orlando Wilson:

Can you carry firearms?

Orlando Wilson:

What type of firearms, what type of ammunition?

Orlando Wilson:

Are there restrictions on magazines?

Orlando Wilson:

Are there restrictions on the type of ammunition you can carry?

Orlando Wilson:

And this is where you just can't, um, you just can't turn up in certain places

Orlando Wilson:

with guns and think, okay, I'm here.

Orlando Wilson:

I can carry a gun, and here we go.

Orlando Wilson:

Because in most places, firearms are extremely restricted.

Orlando Wilson:

And if you, I, I get it all the time in Mexico, okay.

Orlando Wilson:

Guns are very, very restricted.

Orlando Wilson:

In Mexico, as a foreigner, you're not gonna be carrying a gun, period.

Orlando Wilson:

Unless you're working with a narcos, that's it.

Orlando Wilson:

So all this stuff you see on the movies about non Mexicans running around with

Orlando Wilson:

firearms, shooting the place up, it's all bs, but people believe the movies.

Orlando Wilson:

You as a foreigner caught with a firearm in Mexico, if you're caught by the

Orlando Wilson:

narcos, they must probably just kill you.

Orlando Wilson:

If you're caught by the cops, you better have quite a bit of money

Orlando Wilson:

handy to try and get yourself outta jail cause you'll be gonna jail.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and, and that, and that perception versus reality

Phelim Rowe:

is unfortunate because there, there will be a card of people not yet EP

Phelim Rowe:

professionals thinking, yes, absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

This is one of the appeals of becoming, uh, an EP professional.

Phelim Rowe:

And they buy into flashy courses.

Phelim Rowe:

They buy into lifestyles and they might buy into that, um, which of course we're

Phelim Rowe:

trying to dissuade and we're trying to, you know, make the market realize

Phelim Rowe:

there is a massive, massive learning.

Orlando Wilson:

I see courses in UK where they're going through

Orlando Wilson:

simulated firearms training.

Orlando Wilson:

It's like, to me, you can carry firearms in uk so why are you

Orlando Wilson:

doing simulated firearms training?

Orlando Wilson:

And this is where if you're new to the industry, if you don't have military

Orlando Wilson:

experience, are you gonna be trusted with firearm to work with firearms somewhere?

Orlando Wilson:

It's, it's not gonna happen, but it's people selling a myth.

Orlando Wilson:

And I think this is one thing with, how can we put it?

Orlando Wilson:

Unscrupulous companies just taking money off people.

Orlando Wilson:

Selling a myth.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, I'm not gonna make mention too many names about things and courses,

Orlando Wilson:

but it's like I, people approach me and ask me, oh, we've done

Orlando Wilson:

this course, we've done whatever.

Orlando Wilson:

It's like, what's worthless?

Orlando Wilson:

You've done a simulator, well, a hostile environment course.

Orlando Wilson:

The, it's not worth the paper written on.

Orlando Wilson:

You don't have the experience to work in hostile environments.

Orlando Wilson:

You've never been in the military.

Orlando Wilson:

You.

Orlando Wilson:

You might have left England on holiday.

Orlando Wilson:

That's about it.

Orlando Wilson:

And you expect because you've just done a two week course to be

Orlando Wilson:

sent somewhere to stay bodyguard.

Orlando Wilson:

But I think a lot of it is people need to be realistic If they're thinking about

Orlando Wilson:

getting into this business of, okay, what skills do I need and what's actually

Orlando Wilson:

gonna be relevant and not be sold?

Orlando Wilson:

Courses that completely irrelevant.

Orlando Wilson:

If you wanna work arm these days, there are places you can do it, but you're

Orlando Wilson:

gonna have to get on a plane and go.

Orlando Wilson:

And again, you need most places, you need work permits, you need visas and

Orlando Wilson:

it, that can be problematic in itself.

Orlando Wilson:

And again, as, as I said, even if you are going into space like you

Orlando Wilson:

are, going into another country with a firearm is very, very difficult.

Orlando Wilson:

In most countries, the only people that can own and possess firearms are gonna

Orlando Wilson:

be legal residents or legal citizens.

Orlando Wilson:

Going in and on a, even on a work permit is not gonna.

Orlando Wilson:

So you have to understand the rules and

Phelim Rowe:

regulations.

Phelim Rowe:

So do you think a more productive thing that we can do is to say to the

Phelim Rowe:

industry, just divide your attention.

Phelim Rowe:

One side is your hobby and it's competition, pistol shooting or whatever.

Phelim Rowe:

Having great time, uh, down at the range, and then your day job and do not

Phelim Rowe:

mix your hobby and your day job may.

Phelim Rowe:

Maybe that's a, a a hundred percent, a better

Orlando Wilson:

way to get 'em to think.

Orlando Wilson:

Hundred percent.

Orlando Wilson:

And this is one thing, it's like you don't see it so much in Europe because

Orlando Wilson:

guns are a lot more restricted, but you see it in the us, uh, guys can go and

Orlando Wilson:

become, it's a tactical lifestyle, okay?

Orlando Wilson:

And you go buy all the guns, all the equipment, dress up,

Orlando Wilson:

go to the range and shoot.

Orlando Wilson:

And you see a lot if you go to Vegas.

Orlando Wilson:

They got some, apparently some really good gun ranges in.

Orlando Wilson:

You see in South Florida, people have their shooting dress.

Orlando Wilson:

They dress up to go shoot.

Orlando Wilson:

It's their, it's their weekend thing.

Orlando Wilson:

It's their lifestyle.

Orlando Wilson:

If that's your hobby, best's luck to you 100%.

Orlando Wilson:

But don't mix that with the realities of defensive shooting.

Orlando Wilson:

Yeah.

Orlando Wilson:

Which

Phelim Rowe:

I, which I think is a happy medium cuz we acknowledge that

Phelim Rowe:

people enjoy, uh, their, their hobby.

Phelim Rowe:

It's just, you know, um, but, and I don't know, this is maybe putting you on the

Phelim Rowe:

spot, but I've been reading about some future technology that is gonna make

Phelim Rowe:

guns even safer and blah, blah, blah.

Phelim Rowe:

Smart guns.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, these are apparently not just, uh, science fiction, but they will

Phelim Rowe:

only respond to the, uh, owner.

Phelim Rowe:

They'll be controllable by wifi.

Phelim Rowe:

To what extent are they in the common, common, uh, nomenclature, you

Phelim Rowe:

know, parlance, um, today, um, are, are smart guns even on your radar?

Orlando Wilson:

They've popped up in, I think there's a few states in us.

Orlando Wilson:

I've seen it in US people were talking about it, but the thing is you want

Orlando Wilson:

to keep things as simple as possible.

Orlando Wilson:

Would I be happy with the smart gun?

Orlando Wilson:

No, you said wifi.

Orlando Wilson:

What if the WiFi's not working?

Orlando Wilson:

What if it does the battery's.

Orlando Wilson:

And one thing I remember people were selling in the US was biometric safes.

Orlando Wilson:

They opened with a thumbprint.

Orlando Wilson:

Mm-hmm.

Orlando Wilson:

. Yeah.

Orlando Wilson:

Touch your thumb.

Orlando Wilson:

The safe opens, you can access your gut.

Orlando Wilson:

Okay.

Orlando Wilson:

As long as your thumb's not dirty, as long as your thumb's not got oil on it.

Orlando Wilson:

Because again, any issues the, you couldn't open the safe because

Orlando Wilson:

it's not reading your thumbprint.

Orlando Wilson:

So this is where everybody's coming up with these new ideas

Orlando Wilson:

on how to make guns safer.

Orlando Wilson:

The only way you're gonna make guns safer is due to educat.

Orlando Wilson:

And people properly know how, knowing how to use firearms.

Orlando Wilson:

I had issues in the US because again, US is pro-gun, and I said

Orlando Wilson:

to people, okay, everybody that has a firearm, it makes sense to me.

Orlando Wilson:

They should do a training course, not just be able to go out and buy a firearm.

Orlando Wilson:

And there's how many people in us?

Orlando Wilson:

I see a positive in this.

Orlando Wilson:

I obviously see the negatives.

Orlando Wilson:

There's how many people with no experience a firearms going out and buying AK 40.

Orlando Wilson:

Find whatever pistols they want.

Phelim Rowe:

Especially with some of the stand your ground laws,

Phelim Rowe:

which mean that you can maybe stand your ground at a later date.

Phelim Rowe:

I, I know that's controversial, but Yeah, the

Orlando Wilson:

stand your ground laws, I'm all for that because they

Orlando Wilson:

brought this in in the state of Florida, it just removed your need to.

Orlando Wilson:

So you had to show initially what the law used to say that you could only use force

Orlando Wilson:

if you could not escape the situation.

Orlando Wilson:

You had to retreat, stand your ground, just removed the need to retreat.

Orlando Wilson:

So in some ways it made it for justifiable shootings, it made it less complicated.

Orlando Wilson:

You are involved in this justifiable shooting.

Orlando Wilson:

Okay?

Orlando Wilson:

It was justifiable.

Orlando Wilson:

No problem.

Orlando Wilson:

But what people don't forget, what people forget and what doesn't make the media.

Orlando Wilson:

If you shoot somebody and it's not a justifiable shooting a place like Florida,

Orlando Wilson:

you're gonna jail for a minimum 30 years.

Orlando Wilson:

And it's back down to understanding the law and understanding the consequences.

Orlando Wilson:

A lot of the anti-gun people jump on are stand your grounds bad, et cetera.

Orlando Wilson:

It's the laws were there in laws were there before.

Orlando Wilson:

If the shooting is justifiable, it's justifiable.

Orlando Wilson:

This just removes some of the the legal complexities that were on

Orlando Wilson:

people, and I take it on the police to.

Phelim Rowe:

And then, and then maybe that brings us onto one of

Phelim Rowe:

the hotter topics of the last couple of years, uh, for various reasons.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, conceal carry.

Phelim Rowe:

Yes.

Phelim Rowe:

And how one manages to, to do that or not to do that.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, I guess does it, does it ultimately matter because you

Phelim Rowe:

either have it or you don't have it?

Phelim Rowe:

And if you have it and you've concealed it, I mean, it gives

Phelim Rowe:

you the element of surprise.

Phelim Rowe:

I mean, as a layperson, I'm just thinking what's the, what's what does it matter?

Orlando Wilson:

Well, in some states in the US they got open carry, and I'm

Orlando Wilson:

not a big fan of open carry because everybody knows you've got a gun on you.

Orlando Wilson:

And I think, I'm sure people will correct me in some states, you

Orlando Wilson:

don't need a permit open carry.

Orlando Wilson:

You need a permit to conceal carry, and the police are happier

Orlando Wilson:

people, open carry because they can visually see the person has a.

Orlando Wilson:

Where if the gun is concealed, they can't see if the person's harmed or not.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, I'm not a big fan of open carry because again, it's very

Orlando Wilson:

easy to take farms off people.

Orlando Wilson:

And if you see somebody with a gun, okay, that person can be targeted.

Orlando Wilson:

I don't want people to know I'm carrying a firearm.

Orlando Wilson:

I can't these days cause I'm in Europe anyway.

Orlando Wilson:

But when I'm in the O us, I generally carry, um, I don't want people to

Orlando Wilson:

know carrying a firearm is there for me to use for self defense as a last.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, but I don't see any issues with trained people, legal people that's

Orlando Wilson:

gone through the vetting process that's had a federal background check.

Orlando Wilson:

I don't see any problem with them carrying or only firearms.

Orlando Wilson:

And there's been how many shootings in the US recently, and a lot

Orlando Wilson:

of these don't make the media by people with concealed weapons.

Orlando Wilson:

Permits have stopped, um, mass shootings.

Orlando Wilson:

They prevented other people getting hurt and it doesn't make the media.

Orlando Wilson:

For obvious reasons, but, um, I don't see an issue with people

Orlando Wilson:

carrying farms for self defense.

Orlando Wilson:

I think the laws in UK are too restrictive where you cannot defend yourself.

Orlando Wilson:

And I think there's one thing the US has got over, which is a

Orlando Wilson:

big positive in certain states.

Orlando Wilson:

In the US you can still legally defend yourself, which you can in a lot of other.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, no, I appreciate, um, you helping out and, and I, I hope me not

Phelim Rowe:

being any way, uh, an EP professional and especially not a firearms professional.

Phelim Rowe:

I hope this line of questioning helps some of our more uninitiated

Phelim Rowe:

listeners, but I'd like to think it helps some of the more established EP

Phelim Rowe:

professionals think, do you know what?

Phelim Rowe:

The reason we do X, Y, and Z is, or when we talk about standards or

Phelim Rowe:

is a very hot topic, when we are creating the new and c standard in

Phelim Rowe:

this direction, then this is in, in inherently what we've gotta consider.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, I, I think, I think there is merit to, to this sort of

Phelim Rowe:

more, uh, unknowing line of

Orlando Wilson:

questioning.

Orlando Wilson:

Yeah, sure.

Orlando Wilson:

It's, um, by you not understanding the business, you're gonna be more inquisit.

Orlando Wilson:

And you're asking questions, would they not gonna be the textbook?

Orlando Wilson:

Okay.

Orlando Wilson:

The standard question about firearms.

Orlando Wilson:

So yeah, I think it's, we've, uh, talked about things from

Phelim Rowe:

various angles, which.

Phelim Rowe:

I'm laboring the point because the last thing in the world that I need

Phelim Rowe:

is for anyone to come down and go, oh, why is he asking these questions?

Phelim Rowe:

He's not a firearm specialist.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, that's why I'm asking the questions.

Phelim Rowe:

And that's why, that's why we have Orlando One.

Phelim Rowe:

And Orlando, I know you've written several articles over

Phelim Rowe:

the years on this, on this topic.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, any, any themes that, that have been constant with what

Phelim Rowe:

you've been writing about?

Phelim Rowe:

Any, any sort of passions that you, you sort of want people to

Phelim Rowe:

direct, uh, uh, you know them to your articles in the magazine?

Phelim Rowe:

No, I

Orlando Wilson:

think, um, over the years I've written quite a bit for the

Orlando Wilson:

Circuit magazine and I'm writing quite a bit on the firearms there, and we're

Orlando Wilson:

trying to, I'm trying to put out there the realities of the firearms business

Orlando Wilson:

rather than the realities of firearms related to close protection, not just

Orlando Wilson:

what looks cool and people thinks cool because there's a big difference between

Orlando Wilson:

the realities of current firearms, realities of working with firearms and.

Orlando Wilson:

What people see in the movies and on YouTube and on Instagram.

Orlando Wilson:

So I'd just say to people is again, the circuit's got some good writers, and I

Orlando Wilson:

think a lot of what's in there is the truth, which is hard to find these days.

Orlando Wilson:

So people need to, if they're thinking about getting into the close protection

Orlando Wilson:

business, especially armed close protection business, is do their research.

Orlando Wilson:

As I said earlier, make sure the people you're getting the information

Orlando Wilson:

from are qualified and they have the experience to actually give you the

Phelim Rowe:

inform.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, great advice.

Phelim Rowe:

And that is what we are trying to do with the podcast.

Phelim Rowe:

We're trying to bring the pages of the magazine to life and here are the

Phelim Rowe:

pages we're bringing them to life.

Phelim Rowe:

Thank you very much.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, Orlando, um, I, I'd, I'd love for people to reach out to you, um, uh,

Phelim Rowe:

how, how can they get a, get ahold of you if, if, if you are open to that?

Phelim Rowe:

Yeah,

Orlando Wilson:

look me up on LinkedIn.

Orlando Wilson:

I've generally throwing stuff up there on daily or a few times a week.

Orlando Wilson:

Or just look us up on social media rather.

Orlando Wilson:

You gotta look up for me.

Orlando Wilson:

Um, using Orlando, Andy Wilson these days or look up Risk

Orlando Wilson:

Incorporated, you'll find us.

Phelim Rowe:

Fantastic.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, thanks very much for coming on.

Phelim Rowe:

It's been excellent looking at firearms in the EP industry.

Phelim Rowe:

Lots of things I thought I knew and maybe people thought that they completely

Phelim Rowe:

understood, but I, but I like unpick it.

Phelim Rowe:

So, uh, this has been another fantastic edition of the Circuit Magazine podcast.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, thank you very much, Orlando, for setting the record straight, helping us

Phelim Rowe:

focus and really distinguish between that which is undoubtedly fun for many and

Phelim Rowe:

that which is a priority for your career.

Phelim Rowe:

What did you get out of today's session, John?

Jon Moss:

So, one of the biggest things that I'm hearing is , the

Jon Moss:

responsibility of , carrying a firearm.

Jon Moss:

If you're going to.

Jon Moss:

Pull out your firearm let alone use it.

Jon Moss:

You already gotta be, assured of what you're doing.

Jon Moss:

And also, having to be able to stand up in court

Jon Moss:

and explain your actions for, pulling your firearm but it's

Jon Moss:

not only that, it's, the optic.

Jon Moss:

For the principal, his, image as well as, what are you doing to the situation?

Jon Moss:

Are you in fact escalating this situation?

Jon Moss:

Was it necessary to pull your firearm?

Jon Moss:

Was there another way to go about that?

Jon Moss:

So, so much to think about, it's kind of worms.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and I think deescalation as a tactic is, is much more useful.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, uh, especially.

Phelim Rowe:

In this case.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, and, and then I think, you know, it was interesting looking at

Phelim Rowe:

different jurisdictions, um, some European jurisdictions where it could

Phelim Rowe:

in some way be possible, but then the restrictions are really, really tight.

Phelim Rowe:

Some us uh, you know, jurisdictions, which you might imagine are very, uh, open.

Phelim Rowe:

But they have a very strict rule, uh, set.

Phelim Rowe:

And that I, I think, I think you, you need to think about the personal

Phelim Rowe:

effect it could have on you, not just for your work, but you particularly.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, plus I really, I really do think there's something, uh, to be said

Phelim Rowe:

for separating a desire to shoot pistols at competitions and a desire.

Phelim Rowe:

You know, concealed carry or open carry, uh, on, on, on, on task.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, cuz, cuz, cuz for some people, and I, myself included, I think

Phelim Rowe:

that would be a worthwhile hobby.

Phelim Rowe:

What, what do you think John?

Jon Moss:

Well, yeah, sure.

Jon Moss:

You know, I mean, if, if that's your hobby, you know, then pursue it.

Jon Moss:

If that's your passion, if that's something you're into,

Jon Moss:

you know, just the, the same.

Jon Moss:

Martial arts or in, in fact, any hobby that's not even related to the protection

Jon Moss:

go after it, put in everything you want.

Jon Moss:

But if that is the case, then just ensure that you're also putting funds aside and

Jon Moss:

time and commitment towards those other areas of your professional development.

Phelim Rowe:

Absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

And talking about professional development.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, this week, uh, I am going.

Phelim Rowe:

To the I psb in Vegas to be professionally developed.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, I am very excited to see a lot of protectors there.

Phelim Rowe:

And of course, our co-host, Elijah Shore, will be at the EP forum,

Phelim Rowe:

the, uh, the seventh, uh, this week.

Phelim Rowe:

So, uh, I think, I think that is a nice segue.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, uh, will, will we get to see you out there, John?

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, one of these, uh,

Jon Moss:

Yeah, quite possibly.

Jon Moss:

I mean, it's.

Jon Moss:

You know, every time it comes up, like I had covid as a good excuse for the

Jon Moss:

last couple of years, not to go, uh, this year, it was a consideration,

Jon Moss:

work for me, took it out of my hands.

Jon Moss:

However, I, I do think this is one now that is on my calendar and

Jon Moss:

I'm going to make a greater effort.

Jon Moss:

I think, it's something to be done at least once, for sure.

Phelim Rowe:

Absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and there's gonna be a good, uh, British contingent.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, I know some of our long standing, uh, British friends are, are gonna be there.

Phelim Rowe:

I've seen already, uh, that Australian colleagues are

Phelim Rowe:

flying over German colleagues.

Phelim Rowe:

lots of, uh, old French colleagues I saw as well, Mexican colleagues,

Phelim Rowe:

uh, as well as of course, the staple from throughout the states.

Phelim Rowe:

So, We hope that, uh, you find time to listen to this podcast this week or

Phelim Rowe:

perhaps on the weekend after the show.

Phelim Rowe:

, so that's absolutely something we'd love for you to do, and please come say hello

Phelim Rowe:

cuz I'm gonna be doing some interviews, uh, during the, uh, event itself.

Phelim Rowe:

Which is good news for anyone that wants to have their voice

Phelim Rowe:

heard, uh, on the podcast.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, what else, uh, have we got going?

Jon Moss:

Well, as usual, you know, we have all of our, commitments

Jon Moss:

with the podcast, with the newsletter, with the magazine.

Jon Moss:

All of this is going on, as always in the background.

Jon Moss:

So we'll have a new issue coming out very soon.

Jon Moss:

obviously the newsletters come out weekly, which is a really good way to, uh, keep.

Jon Moss:

connected with everything that's happening.

Jon Moss:

It's our first port of call for getting out information.

Jon Moss:

Well, actually that's not true.

Jon Moss:

I suppose the first port of call is always our communities, in BBA

Jon Moss:

Connect and, the Naba Protector app.

Jon Moss:

So, check those out.

Jon Moss:

And then dive into the newsletters

Phelim Rowe:

Wonderful.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, please do sign up.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, I know I like, uh, to read the newsletter even though I kind of have

Phelim Rowe:

an inkling what might go into it.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, so, but please do sign up to it.

Phelim Rowe:

So, so, so you receive that each week.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, please do stop by at the I psb or the EP forum, uh, to see

Phelim Rowe:

either myself or a larger shop.

Phelim Rowe:

And, uh, yes.

Phelim Rowe:

Thank you very much to Orlando Wilson for today's session.

Phelim Rowe:

I know he is working on more fantastic articles for the

Phelim Rowe:

Circuit Magazine in, uh, print.

Phelim Rowe:

In our.

Phelim Rowe:

Addition, uh, on the app and, uh, and, and I really hope that we get to

Phelim Rowe:

celebrate these, uh, these weeks going up until Christmas and first of period.

Phelim Rowe:

So from John and myself, uh, we've really enjoyed looking at firearms in EP a

Phelim Rowe:

slightly more international perspective.

Phelim Rowe:

And, uh, this has been a fantastic edition of the Circuit Magazine podcast.

About the Podcast

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The Circuit Magazine Podcast
For Security Professionals who want to stay ahead of the game.