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Episode 19

Embracing Integrated Training in Security - Lee McWhorter & Kevin Lewis

In this episode, we deep-dive into the dynamic theme of Integrated Training and how this innovative approach is revolutionizing the way security professionals operate. Discover why mastering both the digital battleground and the physical frontline is no longer a luxury, but a critical necessity.

Phelim and Shaun are pleased to welcome Lee McWhorter, CTO and Director of Cybersecurity at Covered Six, and Kevin Lewis, Director of Training also at Covered Six as we take a journey through the cutting-edge intersection of cyber and physical security.

Tune in to learn why Integrated Training isn’t just an option, but an absolute game-changer for anyone in the security field. In this epsiode we discuss:

  • Overview of Integrated Training: The importance and impact of combining physical and cyber security training in the security industry.
  • Two Pillars of Security: Exploring the interrelation and convergence of cybersecurity and physical security in integrated training.
  • Cyber-Physical Threats: Examining scenarios where cyber and physical security threats intersect and their implications.
  • Essential Knowledge for Security Professionals: The necessity of a basic understanding in both cyber and physical security for effective client protection.
  • Importance of OSINT and Cyber Hygiene: The role of open-source intelligence and cybersecurity awareness in modern security practices.
  • Challenges and Future Outlook: Discussing the complexities and future trends in integrated training within the security industry.

Our Guests:

Lee McWhorter

Kevin Lewis

Covered Six

More about the Circuit:

The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

If you liked this podcast, we have an accompanying weekly newsletter called 'On the Circuit' where we take a deeper dive into the wider industry. Opt in here >

The Circuit team is:

  • Jon Moss
  • Shaun West
  • Phelim Rowe
  • Elijah Shaw

Connect with Us: 

Circuit Magazine

BBA Connect

NABA Protector

British Bodyguard Association

Transcript
Kevin Lewis:

It's one of the problems with the training in the United States,

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is it focuses on what I call the big

sexy driving, shooting, fighting,

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you know, all that kind of stuff.

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Welcome to the Circuit Magazine, the

number one source of information on

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protection matters, the industry leading

magazine for all security professionals

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who want to stay ahead of the game.

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Phelim: Integrated EP training.

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Today, Shaun West and myself are

delighted to be speaking with

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Lee McWhorter and Kevin Lewis.

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from Covered six out of

California and Texas.

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Great to be talking about this topic,

but also great because Kevin has an

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EP background, a physical security

background, a martial arts background,

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and Lee has a quote unquote cyber,

but actually OSINT background.

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Shaun, why is this an increasingly

important topic in terms of, you

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know, the way EP trains today?

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Shaun West: Thank you, traditional EPO.

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Who completes their course, they get

the bare bones skills to go on and do

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the job, get their license and operate.

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But that can't be the

end of your learning.

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You have to add more

tools to your toolbox.

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And I think some of the things

you mentioned there are key.

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I think OSINT is definitely

becoming more prevalent.

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in the game at the moment because it

allows you to carry out your own due

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diligence on your principles yourself,

see what's out there on yourself.

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And also when you're prepping

for other tasks or visiting other

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venues, there's lots of tools out

there that can aid you in that due

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diligence and advance of that event or

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Phelim: location.

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And that's really key, isn't it?

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Because I think maybe five, ten years

ago, when people thought cyber skills,

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IT skills, they thought, oh no, I have

to learn how to code, and oh no, maybe

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I need to spend time in a, in a SOC,

and, and work my way up as an analyst.

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But actually, no, that's

not really what it's about.

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It's about maintaining your EP discipline,

but knowing how to find information out.

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Now, of course, there are limits.

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Maybe you don't want to

go onto the dark web.

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Um, and we would not recommend that,

uh, for our listeners, but there's

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certainly a lot of OSINT, um, courses

out there, and, and, and maybe just, um,

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having a little bit of cyber training

alongside enables you to know who and

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why to call, or, or maybe what to harden.

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I think they like to call it SAS

hardening, software as a service

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hardening, which, you know, it could, it

could be as simple as the, the, the Zoom

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platform, um, Did you make sure that your,

your attendees in, in a webinar could

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not do absolutely anything they wanted?

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Um, I mean, that's, that's security too.

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Um, I, I think it doesn't have to be

this, uh, rather ominous, uh, coding,

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uh, bootcamp type skills, does it, Shaun?

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No, not

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Lee McWhorter: at

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Shaun West: all.

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I think since I've started my

career, I like to do a lot of courses

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that sort of broaden my knowledge

in a lot of different areas.

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Whilst it gives me the knowledge,

I also like to have a good contact

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book of specialists also because

things that become out of your remit

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or knowledge, it's always better to

get a professional in to do that job.

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But yeah, there's, I mean, there's

lots of information you can do

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and tools you can add to yourself.

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without becoming an expert where you

can still add a huge amount of value.

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Phelim: Perfect.

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Well, well, well, that's perhaps

where we need to dig into it.

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And that's why it's great to have

someone that is a bona fide physical

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security expert and a quote unquote

cyber security expert here today.

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Um, so, so let's get into it.

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Um, let's look at the, uh,

integrated training of the

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future, uh, for the protector.

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And, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm really,

really looking forward to

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hearing from Lee and Kevin.

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Kevin Lewis: And now let's meet one of

the contributors to the Circuit Magazine.

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Phelim: Integrated Training

for Tomorrow's Protector.

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I'm delighted to be speaking with Lee

McWhorter, CTO, Director of Cybersecurity

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at Covered Six, and Kevin Lewis,

Director of Training also at Covered Six.

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Loved to have you both on.

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How are you doing?

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Doing

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Kevin Lewis: good.

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Thanks for having us.

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Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

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We're happy to be here.

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Phelim: And I'm really happy because

Both of you represent two sides of

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the security environment that come

together for integrated training.

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So often on the podcast, we do touch

on topics that are maybe cyber heavy or

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maybe physical heavy, but coming together

in an integrated training, I think,

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is what people have been asking for.

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They said, yes, but what about me?

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Right?

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Me, the protector, I the

protector, how can I benefit?

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So, with our three quickfire

questions, let's get into it.

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What is the problem we're trying

to solve with a training such as

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Lee McWhorter: yours?

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Well, I think we're trying to solve, you

know, at least from my perspective, we

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teach cameras and access controls and

lock the darn server room door and man

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traps and piggybacking and all that.

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And I know Kevin's side of the house

teaches a lot of tech and information

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that will, you know, helps there.

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Um, physical and EP protectors

have a balanced approach from the

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other side of the house as well.

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Kevin Lewis: Sure, Kevin can add.

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Yeah, it's definitely, um, we're just

trying to make sure that we mitigate all

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the risks and the current threat scape.

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And as you know, the threat scape

is evolving very quickly right now.

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So we're, we constantly have to up our

game in order to deal with all those

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various threats that are coming from the

cyber side or, you know, the deep fake

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side, the AI, all that fun stuff that's.

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Currently happening, but then again,

address that to the physical, um, and

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really just mitigate rest for the client.

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That's what it's all about.

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Okay,

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Phelim: I like that.

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And ultimately, the client probably

just doesn't care, they want it solved.

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But let's take a step back.

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What about your passion?

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Where does your passion

for this come from?

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Uh, Lee, and

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Lee McWhorter: then maybe Kevin?

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Well, you know, it's one of the things

when I was fortunate enough to be

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referred and got to join this wonderful

group here at Covered Six, um, that I

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really shared with our founder, Kristone.

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Kevin and all the senior team,

is just a holistic approach.

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I've always felt, even as a

guy who really focuses on the

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cyber side, that you have to.

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It's one of my mantras, lock

the damn server room door.

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There's all these stories of people

who put up all the defenses and the

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firewalls and the intrusion detection,

and somebody wants it bad enough, they

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just drive a car through the front

window and steal all the hard drives.

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And of course, you know, we want

to make sure that the other side

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of the house is aware that a

drone flying over the building is

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not just some kid's toy anymore.

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That could be me landing a

hotspot to break into your office.

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And so this kind of cross, you

know, we're always as strong as our

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weakest link and it's usually people.

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And so one of the biggest

things we got to do is train.

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And if we can train in a more integrated

way, then I think that betters both sides

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and then the whole holistic approach to

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Kevin Lewis: security.

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Yeah, so Leah and I have had many

conversations about this and it's

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really about, you know, I was a

solo operator most of the time, so

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I was constantly looking for ways

to leverage force multipliers of any

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kind in order to help me provide for

my client, because, you know, it's,

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There's not enough manpower, right?

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But also, um, to be able to educate

myself enough so that I know what other

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possible threats could be out there.

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Because, uh, I jokingly always say

to Lee that I'm a walking EMP, right?

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So, if I don't You know, I need to

know more about this side of the field

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because I feel totally vulnerable there

because I don't have any understanding

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until Lee came along and started

teaching me and then telling us, you

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know, giving us opportunities to learn

from any everything from OSINT to just,

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you know, good, good cyber awareness

and, and hygiene, you know, I mean,

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that's just the basic entry level that

every agent needs to have, because you

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could be setting things up that could

cause your client problems, right?

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Okay.

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Plus the clients are bringing us problems.

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And again, every time I walk into

a new residence or with a new

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client, I have to deal with a new I.

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T.

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team and they're not always, um.

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forthcoming, right?

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So I need to know enough that I can

ask the right questions from two

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of them to make sure everything's

locked down for the client.

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So it's more for my end, uh, for our,

our educational process, that the guys

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really understand the risks and what

they can do to help mitigate them.

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So, you

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Lee McWhorter: know, going on with

what Kevin said about sometimes.

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IT teams out there not being forthcoming.

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We've, it's something we're trying to, I'm

trying to break down and have people, and

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that's people I train and people out in

the community not do, but we kind of, you

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know, keep the information to ourselves.

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And, um, you know, that is something

that you do run into a lot of IT teams.

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It's like they need to keep it for their

own secrecy, but we need to share it

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so that we can all be on the same page.

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Phelim: Okay.

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So, so, so let me ask Kevin for the

third quickfire question, right?

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Kevin.

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What does the uninitiated

protector need to better understand

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about integrated training?

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Like, I can imagine them thinking,

Oh, well, am I going to learn to code?

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Well, what should they

better understand, Kevin?

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Kevin Lewis: Well, they should definitely

better understand the OSINT side.

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And a lot of accounts now are asking

for, uh, agents that can actually

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do OSINT scrubs on the client daily.

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Um, so that's a key factor, but just

in general, what is good cyber hygiene,

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uh, would be a base level, right?

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And then what potential risks are out

there that the client's facing or that

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the security, the cybersecurity team

is facing so that we can assist in

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asking the right questions and also, uh,

pushing, uh, helping the client make the

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proper decision making to like upgrade

the things that the cyber team needs.

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You know, that would be like the

elemental things that I would say.

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Phelim: Okay.

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That makes sense.

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And I like that because that's from

the perspective of the protector.

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And quite often the protector

sees lots of flashy, fancy ideas.

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And, and they think, well, I mean,

I'm not speaking for you, Oh,

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protector out there in the audience,

but you might think which way.

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Um, so let me, let me

put it to you this way.

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We're talking integrated training.

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And this isn't necessarily talking about

the single unified soldier, and we've had

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that on the podcast before, um, and, and

I totally get it if you've come from the

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military, J6 instead of A6, N6, and so on.

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Uh, Lee, what then does

integrated training look like?

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Is it as simple as, now I'm

doing something cyber related,

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now I'm doing something physical

related, or, or is there something

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more to integrated training?

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Kevin Lewis: Um, so what it looks

like is, each, in each section of

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our, our training, we're trying to

incorporate some aspect of technology,

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and an understanding of technology.

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So, um, OSINT, we actually,

like, Take them through the

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process of why that's important.

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Cause again, like you're saying, what's,

what's important is the why's, right?

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Like what's, what's my, why, why

do I need to know this stuff?

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The biggest thing is, is, you know,

the client vulnerability, right?

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Is like, how, how can we fix that?

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And there's millions of examples of

this where, you know, people are using

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technology to actually stalk the client.

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Right?

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Make it there.

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Um, a lot of the stalking now

happens, uh, electronically.

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Got a number of cases like that where

I've been dealing with people that have

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electronic stalking, and then you gotta

go back and figure out who this guy is,

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or you gotta pay somebody to do that.

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It's kind of, uh, really good for

the client if we can keep all that

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in house, and that our guys have the

understanding of How to, how to deal

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with those types of situations so we

can start setting up an investigation

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or getting a file going on this person,

you know, so that's the, the training

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is, um, introducing aspects of the cyber

side to the, to the individual agent as

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they're going through training and, uh,

introducing the technology side too.

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Like, hey, technology is happening

so fast now, especially with like

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AI cameras and stuff like that.

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It's kind of hard to keep up, but they

should just have an understanding.

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understanding that, hey, you need to learn

all aspects of this field, especially

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later on if you want to be a detail

leader or a, you know, a chief security

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officer or something like that on the

corporate level, they have to have not

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just the cyber, not just the integration,

but also the physical understanding.

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Because they all work together.

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And like Lee's saying, the weakest

point there is really the people, right?

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But, and that can be just egos

between different groups, right?

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Where they're, they're

not playing nice together.

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And so the client's not

getting exactly what they need.

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So when we're integrating training,

what we're trying to do is open the

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guy's minds to the fact that, hey,

this Security is more than just you

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standing there looking cool, right?

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You have to actually get into some

aspects of this other technology and

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the cyber side so that you can keep

your clients safe on all levels, right?

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So that's kind of how we incorporate it.

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Phelim: And, and, and Kevin, I'll

be interested because, you know,

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with your background, you, you,

you've got martial arts, you've

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got a lot of physical security.

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Um, how did, how did, How

do you adapt to all of this?

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Because maybe if people put

themselves in your shoes, Kevin,

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and sort of, you know, extrapolate.

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Kevin Lewis: Yeah, so, um, for myself,

not being a very tech savvy guy, um, I,

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and, you know, how we, how I'm always

doing things is looking for how I can

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improve myself for my clients, right?

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So not just on the physical training side,

but on, on the aspect of learning a little

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bit of technology so that, At least I

can have a conversation with the IT team

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and I don't look like a complete idiot.

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Right?

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And that they will, they will be able

to, to, um, understand what I need from

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them, uh, as a detail leader or as a

person who's setting up a contract.

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Right?

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And, um, you know, I've seen so many

things go wrong with, you know, um,

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With teams not communicating and

not getting all the help they need

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from each other, and then, you know,

when it all falls down, everybody's

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end up getting fired, right?

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Because, because nobody's communicating,

we have these egos bouncing around.

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So, um, for myself, it was

more just about, you know,

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this is a weakness I have.

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I need to fix this.

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Uh, the industry is growing.

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Um, I had left the industry

and came back, had to retool.

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Um, and, and, you know, so it's an

ongoing learning for EP or physical

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is a lifelong process, and it doesn't

include just the physical stuff.

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It's one of the problems with The

training in the United States is

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it focuses on what I call the big

sexy, driving, shooting, fighting,

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you know, all that kind of stuff.

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But Lee and, and I can tell you that the

people that are really successful are

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the ones who have that high emotional

intelligence, who understand where they

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have a weakness and they can fix it.

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Um, and then, you know, okay, we

need to add integration training.

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We need to add some cyber training,

and it can be enough just so that

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they're able to just have that

conversation with the other teammates

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and know what they need to do, right?

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So that's kind of how I look at it.

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My philosophy is always to bring my

best person to the client, because

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if it's just me out there, And I need

to find ways of force multiplying

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by these other team members that we

all got to be working together to

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make this happen every day, right?

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And to do that, you got to

have some understanding.

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Phelim: And for that understanding,

Lee, how do you translate that, uh,

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because I'm sure, Lee, you go to a

lot of cyber conferences and, uh, you

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know, you're prolific in that side of

the world, but how do you translate it

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so that, let's say, an EP operator who

has no background, uh, can benefit?

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Lee McWhorter: Well, I think one of the

things that I've tried to do with some

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of the times I've gotten to speak to some

of our classes on that side, or even some

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of the things when I do go to like ASIS,

GSX, or more of a physical, though they're

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growing the cyber side, and I'm glad to

see that, that whole holistic approach,

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but you know, like Kevin references,

we're not trying to turn the world.

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You know, an EP protector into an IT

person, per se, we're trying to give

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them the knowledge they need to, to,

to help, you know, minimize that risk,

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you know, like, does the client have

a guest Wi Fi set up at their house?

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Is that a vulnerability, um, you

know, are the cameras isolated and

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secure and patched so that people

aren't looking in and spying on them?

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Um, do they have an, you know,

and they don't have to know

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how to set up that camera.

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They don't have to know

how to set up that Wi Fi.

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Okay.

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That's technically for the IT or cyber

team to do, but they have to know at

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least that there's risk there that need

to be discussed and to make sure that that

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team has done the things they're supposed

to do to keep things updated and safe.

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And it's sort of like on the other

side, I'm not trying to turn an

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IT cybersecurity analyst or a pen

tester or whatever role they take.

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into a protector, um, but I want them

to be aware, you know, about how things

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that we do affect that side of the house.

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Camera placement, uh, VLANs to keep

devices and smart devices off of

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the network for security purposes.

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It's, you know, and so that's that

integrated approach of training.

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And one of the things I know that

Kevin and I both want to do in future

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is even more integrated exercises.

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Um, you know, where the teams work

together to actually solve a problem,

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um, you know, and, and both cyber

and EP physical teams could work

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together to solve those challenges and

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Phelim: problems.

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No, I like that because immersive

learning, uh, tabletop exercises, um,

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very, very much bring teams together.

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Many people have said pen testing is

the ideal, uh, scenario, although,

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you know, how, how, how, how red

team, how red teams do you want to

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be is up to the client, I suppose.

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Um, but, but we mentioned in, in,

in our prequel that some of the

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skills are as simple as OSINT.

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And we've had OSINT sessions on the

podcast before, and many of them

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concluded, right, I'll take it this

far, but beyond that, I need an expert.

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What are some of the tools that

you're teaching that sort of take

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them far enough to be dangerous, but

there's a drop off point, isn't it,

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where they have to actually say, no,

I need the TSCM expert or something?

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Well, I mean, I,

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Lee McWhorter: you know, it's funny.

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I think some people

have an aptitude for it.

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You know, a lot of it's research

and, and sort of the, the mental

337

:

gymnastics of sometimes coming

at a problem differently, trying

338

:

different searches, different things.

339

:

And so some people can go

much further than others.

340

:

But yeah, if you're, depends on what

level, I guess, the client needs and,

341

:

you know, from, I think, from a protector

and even from a base analyst point of

342

:

view, um, a basic understanding to sort

of stay abreast of, you know, the threat

343

:

landscape, you know, we use it in the

cyber side for threat hunting, keeping

344

:

up with what threat actors are out there,

what they're doing, what they're tactics

345

:

and procedures are, um, you know, and we

want the protectors to be aware of, you

346

:

know, threats that are being made against

their principals, uh, the locations

347

:

they're guarding, whatever that might be.

348

:

So, um, you know, they're, we're not

trying to get necessarily, um, People

349

:

all the way down to an OSINT expert,

but I think there's a beginning to

350

:

intermediate level depending upon

some of the aptitude of some of the

351

:

Kevin Lewis: students.

352

:

Yeah, and as far as for myself, you

know, entering into this and working

353

:

with Lee on developing a little bit

of my skill set, I mean, I, I start

354

:

very simply with, um, a, a Google, uh,

A Google, um, a Google alert, right,

355

:

for every client that I start, right?

356

:

So I'm going to start gaining

a little bit of intelligence on

357

:

what's out there with the client.

358

:

Then I do a quick OSINT search

with some of the tools that Lee

359

:

has set up for us, just to see

what's out there on the client.

360

:

And then, you know, we'll, we'll toss it

up to someone with a lot more experience

361

:

and they'll go do a deep dive and see

where the client is vulnerable, right?

362

:

So, in my case, I'm just

looking really quickly, you

363

:

know, what is there out there?

364

:

Is there already someone stalking them?

365

:

How can we get access to those?

366

:

Covered 6 is very

proactive in our approach.

367

:

So if there is someone stalking one of

our clients, you know, we'll want to

368

:

know where they're at and we may even

go put surveillance on this person

369

:

versus sitting back and kind of waiting

to see and the typical strategy.

370

:

Um, we like to, we like to stick a guy

right next to them wherever they're

371

:

at, you know, just in case and be more

proactive and, um, I think that as As we

372

:

progress and the threatscape continues

to change, you're going to have to be

373

:

more and more proactive with the holistic

approach of this because, you know,

374

:

one or two guys can't get the job done.

375

:

Right?

376

:

I mean, if you're already waiting for

the attack to happen, you're too late.

377

:

Right?

378

:

So, um, we need to make sure that we're

ahead of the curve as much as we can.

379

:

And we have things locked

down tight enough that, yeah.

380

:

That, uh, if someone does a breach,

they gotta have some skill set, right?

381

:

And then that narrows down the

field of who can do that, right?

382

:

When you have, uh, you know, celebrities

that are, you know, someone's

383

:

taking the data, the metadata off

a photo that they've taken, uh, off

384

:

a reflection off their eyeball, and

followed them to the train station

385

:

they saw, uh, listed on that, right?

386

:

I'm sure you've heard of that.

387

:

that situation, right?

388

:

This is stuff that can happen now with

people without hardly any training, right?

389

:

So, you know, if they can get that close

to my client, then I gotta have some

390

:

effective strategies in place to make

sure that those things don't happen.

391

:

Phelim: Yeah.

392

:

It seems, it seems everybody's,

uh, uh, now got the gift of OSINT.

393

:

Um, high, high profile things.

394

:

Um, I think on one high profile

occasion, which we don't need to

395

:

worry about, but someone was, uh,

discovered a lot from a zip tie.

396

:

Um, just, just one zip tie told

them an awful lot of information.

397

:

Um, yeah.

398

:

But where does this then leave

the idea of maybe the technical.

399

:

EP Professional.

400

:

I, uh, is this your education for all

EP professionals or do you think it's

401

:

gonna kind of push us into something

that Christian West likes to bring

402

:

up a lot, which is the technical EP

professional, um, that, that, that

403

:

one extra, uh, skill set on the team?

404

:

Kevin Lewis: Personally, I think that

it's going to require both, right?

405

:

So everyone should have a base

level of understanding that so that

406

:

they can look for vulnerabilities.

407

:

And then we have that guy who

can go deeper and do all that

408

:

and handle the deeper part.

409

:

But still, the EP team is going

to have to be aware of all that.

410

:

They're going to have

to write the reports.

411

:

They're going to have to

help with the investigation.

412

:

So, you know, they need to

be knowledgeable as well.

413

:

But, but, like you said, they're.

414

:

There does need to be someone who can do

that deeper dive and, uh, has the, the

415

:

higher skill set, you know, so, and, and

the more demanding the client is, or the

416

:

more demanding the threatscape is for that

client, the more that's needed, right?

417

:

But on a base level, I can be a solo

operator for a celebrity and I can

418

:

get some really good information

and deal with someone on a stocking

419

:

basis and not have to go there.

420

:

Right?

421

:

And like I said, you know, I'm not.

422

:

The most tech savvy guy in the world.

423

:

In the world, so if I

can do it, anybody can.

424

:

Lee McWhorter: Well, Kevin's not

giving himself enough credit.

425

:

I think a lot of people, they're better

than they think they are when it comes

426

:

to tech, even if they're not tech.

427

:

But I, I think that, you know, there's

a couple aspects here, you know.

428

:

Kevin talked about putting, you know,

somebody to watch, you know, surveillance.

429

:

That can happen digitally.

430

:

Kevin and most executive protectors

need to be able to find that

431

:

and go, okay, that's a problem.

432

:

But they're not necessarily going

to have the skill to go build a

433

:

sock puppet and follow that person

digitally and join their groups,

434

:

but a more advanced person would.

435

:

Um, and that, you know, and one of

the things that I've been really happy

436

:

and proud to see within our training

programs is that while we, in each

437

:

program, touch on aspects of the other.

438

:

So in the EP and physical side, Kevin

and his team are teaching some cyber

439

:

and some hygiene and some OSINT,

and we're teaching locks and access

440

:

controls and basic stuff on our side.

441

:

Um, one of the things that we're seeing a

lot is actually dozens of students cross

442

:

and take parts of different programs.

443

:

Um, and, and I think that

there's two possibilities that

444

:

are going to happen out of that.

445

:

One is exactly what you said, sir, you

know, that some of these people are

446

:

going to be able to move into that.

447

:

technical EP role, um, and then some

of them are putting it in their back

448

:

pocket for later, so when they someday

move to, say, Director of Security,

449

:

they can talk both sides of the house

and, and have that understanding.

450

:

And so we've had dozens of students,

we actually had one this May, who

451

:

was the first student who has both.

452

:

Oh, I shouldn't say both.

453

:

He has all.

454

:

So he has physical, security program,

AP program, and both our intro

455

:

and intermediate cyber programs.

456

:

So he's the first student

this year that has all four.

457

:

We have maybe a dozen that have three,

and then we have dozens that have, you

458

:

know, physical and cyber, cyber and AP.

459

:

And so that's something we're seeing

a lot of, a lot of crossover, uh,

460

:

to take it up to that next level.

461

:

So, so maybe,

462

:

Phelim: I don't know, it sounds

like a funny question, but

463

:

I think a useful question.

464

:

What's not?

465

:

In the integrated training remit, like

what's, what's not, uh, for you to teach?

466

:

Um, because, because in a way, again,

it might sound very appealing to,

467

:

to, to do an integrated training

course, but I, but I wonder where's

468

:

the, where's the, where's the limits?

469

:

Where's the, the edge of, of what people,

uh, as, as EP professionals should not be

470

:

Lee McWhorter: trained?

471

:

If I can add, I would say a couple,

like, that without additional training,

472

:

and um, and I preach this across the

board, you really shouldn't be playing

473

:

around with fake identities, sock

puppets, um, you know, if you're not very

474

:

well versed in, in building that out.

475

:

building out a virtual environment

where you can keep that isolated,

476

:

you run the risk of causing

more trouble than you gain.

477

:

You, you're giving away to, to your

adversaries that you're watching them.

478

:

Also, to be honest with you, the, what

we call the dark web, the underbelly

479

:

through Tor sec, you know, IPsec,

those things are once again, not

480

:

something that even the beginning

cyber people need to go down into.

481

:

Um, and we need to be aware of it.

482

:

But I would not be teaching that in,

in any of those types of programs.

483

:

That's a more advanced for the technical

side only, and, and there are tools

484

:

actually as well, um, you know, a number

that are in a sense, you know, Darkal,

485

:

Echosec, others that are basically,

um, Sort of the Google of dark web.

486

:

If that's really a need because your

client is so high profile or your, your

487

:

industry is so targeted by, you know,

advanced persistent threats that you're

488

:

going to need to be checking that all

the time, then you're going to want

489

:

to license one of those products where

you don't have to go there yourself.

490

:

You can run like a Google search

and have a safer way to, so there's

491

:

different ways to approach that.

492

:

Kevin Lewis: And

493

:

Phelim: safe, I think is key, isn't it?

494

:

Because.

495

:

Just from my limited impression,

if a novice went somewhere on the

496

:

dark web, they may go somewhere

they're not supposed to go.

497

:

Lee McWhorter: Absolutely.

498

:

With one click, they can see something

that they just broke the law.

499

:

They saw an image they weren't,

and that's on their computer now.

500

:

So, I mean, that's something that we

very few, even in the cyber community,

501

:

some very few of the most experts

go down and play in that world live.

502

:

Because you're taking a lot of risk

of viruses, malware being uncovered

503

:

and being attacked, and not to

mention, they're not safe for work

504

:

and illegal stuff that you might want

505

:

Kevin Lewis: to do.

506

:

Yeah, I would agree with

that a hundred percent.

507

:

There's, there's some places I'm not going

to go, uh, with my limited skill set.

508

:

And I have to, I have to, uh, be

smart enough to say, Hey, I need to

509

:

pass this over to that other person

or other, other team member that can

510

:

handle this, who has the experience.

511

:

Um, and also, you know, for EP

specifically, um, I don't want to

512

:

have a bunch of fake identities

and all this kind of stuff.

513

:

It just doesn't sit well with clients.

514

:

I think if they were to find about

that, you know, it's the kind of the,

515

:

you know, a double edged sword for us

in the sense that we have to maintain a

516

:

high level integrity, and so I may hand

off some of that, I may be able to, you

517

:

know, fly a drone, I may be able to pop

a drone if we need it, I may be able to

518

:

do a quick OSINT search and, and just,

you know, ask questions about the cyber

519

:

side, make sure everything's locked down.

520

:

But as far as doing the heavy lifting

in that area, it's not my role.

521

:

Right?

522

:

And, and I need to be smart enough to

understand that and let the people who

523

:

do specialize in that handle those deeper

dives and not put the client at risk.

524

:

Right?

525

:

So it all comes down to that risk thing

again, you know, do is what I'm going

526

:

to do a bigger risk to the client than

what information I'm going to get.

527

:

Right?

528

:

So, um, yeah.

529

:

I, I always, we always have

to hedge our betts that way.

530

:

Right.

531

:

And, and err on the side of being

conservative, letting the people

532

:

who do that job do that job for us.

533

:

And, and that's how you, that's

how you maximize your time as well,

534

:

Phelim: right?

535

:

Yeah.

536

:

And, and we've had, I think Sandra ti

um, who I think you, you know, right?

537

:

Uh mm-Hmm.

538

:

Lee McWhorter: and yeah, we

know her very, very well.

539

:

Good friend.

540

:

She's on our, our website as well.

541

:

Partner of ours.

542

:

Yeah,

543

:

Phelim: I think, I think one of the, one

of the things she once said on one of

544

:

the sessions was sometimes a client might

say, do your worst, and they have no idea

545

:

what you can definitely come back with.

546

:

So then I wonder, I mean, on the one

side, I've asked what's the remit, you

547

:

know, what's the edge of your remit,

but is there a danger that you're too

548

:

successful, especially on the OSINT side?

549

:

Um, do you, do you, do you have to

manage client expectations and say, This

550

:

is not for me because you don't want

your bodyguard running around with an

551

:

enormous amount of personal information.

552

:

I mean, is there something

there to consider?

553

:

Lee McWhorter: I would say,

I guess, maybe by client.

554

:

I defer to Kevin with

his experience on that.

555

:

I mean, if you've got a good

relationship, my assumption, and maybe

556

:

it's a little bit romanticized, but

that you've got a relationship, you

557

:

already know so much about that client

that them, they may not be upset.

558

:

They, they, you're, you're, with them

24 7, you're living at their house,

559

:

you're, all these things that could be

possible, but other clients are very,

560

:

you know, people are very private.

561

:

So, yeah, I could see that

that could be its own line.

562

:

It's not even your skill line,

but what the client will tolerate.

563

:

Kevin Lewis: Yeah, I think the way

that you're presenting that, that

564

:

could be a double edged sword for the

executive protection specialist, because,

565

:

you know, um, There are things the

clients don't want you to know, right?

566

:

And there are, compartmentalization is

not a bad thing in terms of safety, right?

567

:

So maybe, you know, one, you know,

the detail lead and, uh, company

568

:

owner are aware of some of these

things, but not every guy on the

569

:

detail needs to be aware of it, right?

570

:

They need to be able to do their job

and, um, not get put at risk of, you

571

:

know, like, if so, they do have all that

information, then what you do with it.

572

:

Phelim: Lee, what would

you advise a protector?

573

:

Looking to get into this space, should,

should, should it be a course that

574

:

they do as part of their basic training

or can they still get on courses that

575

:

are focused on integrated training?

576

:

Lee McWhorter: Well, I mean, obviously

there's like ours, you know, some

577

:

programs, I'm sure others that are trying

to do this or have, you know, electives

578

:

or ways to put together that type of

training from different other companies.

579

:

Um, I know it's not a huge

amount out there just based on

580

:

knowing the space a bit, but.

581

:

I also do know that even if you went

through a more traditional program,

582

:

and then you're wanting to add that you

could definitely round it out yourself.

583

:

As you know, or very well, Sandra has her

courses, there's tons of people that, you

584

:

know, different types of models, whether

it's, you know, Uh, e learning or, you

585

:

know, self paced that you could add some

skills in some of those areas when it

586

:

comes to OSINT and even basic hygiene.

587

:

We have a free hygiene class

off our website, for example.

588

:

You know, so there's materials out there

and that's one of the things I know

589

:

we throw some of our students through

is just to here, take this with you.

590

:

You can give this and show it to

your other people you work with or

591

:

your client and their staff so that

they have the same basic knowledge.

592

:

So there's definitely ways to

add it on even if you didn't

593

:

get An integrated program

594

:

Kevin Lewis: to begin with.

595

:

Yeah, I.

596

:

I think the thing is, is like,

finally back up, sorry, um, is that,

597

:

that we're, is that we always have

to work towards integration, right?

598

:

Um, we're going to give the guys

enough that they can kind of start

599

:

to understand about the, the, the

other aspects, but on a higher level,

600

:

if they, if they want to grow in the

industry, they're going to need to

601

:

expand their area of expertise, right?

602

:

And, and their knowledge level.

603

:

Uh, consistently, uh, moving forward,

especially into if you're been a physical

604

:

guy, you need to kind of, you need to

step over there and start learning about

605

:

drones and start learning what those

capabilities are, because not only is

606

:

it a threat, it's also can be an asset.

607

:

Right?

608

:

Same thing with cyber.

609

:

It can be an ad.

610

:

We got a really good cyber team.

611

:

They're going to protect us on that side.

612

:

So there are, there are teammates, you

know, that we need to be able to make sure

613

:

are working as effectively as they are.

614

:

So having some knowledge in that

is going to be very important.

615

:

And

616

:

Lee McWhorter: I think everybody's going

to have to learn a little bit about AI,

617

:

um, you know, as it comes down because

especially for higher end, um, you

618

:

know, celebrity type, uh, principles and

high net worth, people who have a lot

619

:

of data out them, seeing what AI says

about them, what it has available is a

620

:

simple OSINT search in a sense now that

will potentially give you some pointers

621

:

as to where you need to dig deeper.

622

:

Um, yeah.

623

:

And then definitely we want to make

sure the teams are working together.

624

:

Um, like I said, I, I'm not expecting

one of our cyber guys to, you know,

625

:

per se, jump out and take a bullet or,

you know, do something, but they should

626

:

know where, where their piece is and how

they support that team and vice versa.

627

:

Phelim: I like it.

628

:

I think, I think that maybe

is a much better way to focus.

629

:

Uh, our efforts, because rather than who

you're going to be, it's who you're going

630

:

to call, but maybe you need to have an

appreciation of the other discipline as to

631

:

why you want to call them, much as you may

not be a TACM, uh, specialist, uh, but you

632

:

know why you might want to call one, um,

which, which I think is, is a bold, a more

633

:

bold and, uh, less timid kind of approach.

634

:

I, I, I worry that in years gone by,

people have said, I don't understand it.

635

:

Therefore it's not me.

636

:

I But we're not saying it's you.

637

:

We're saying you, you, you want

to know why you would call such

638

:

a person, um, a limo driver.

639

:

You don't have a limo, but you know

why you'd call it a limo driver.

640

:

Right.

641

:

So, so, so what's next

for you and COVID 6?

642

:

Um, where are we next going to see you?

643

:

What, what, what are you next up to?

644

:

Lee McWhorter: Well, I, um, have just

passed the bulk of the conference season,

645

:

though I guess we'll probably be at SHI

show as we head into the new year, and

646

:

then things will start to pick up for me.

647

:

It's the usual RSA, Black Hat, DEF CON,

I do try to make JSX, even though we may

648

:

send some different people this year.

649

:

We've been trying to get, I've been

going because of some cyber stuff

650

:

that they're growing, but we really

need to have Jacob and Kevin, our

651

:

physical side, get to get there too.

652

:

Um, and so hopefully

we'll do a lot of those.

653

:

We've been working on, I hope we're

going to be able to heavily talk more

654

:

about it next year, but even some VR, AR

type of stuff, um, which I think helps

655

:

us integrate some of this training.

656

:

So, you know, we're, we're just

constantly trying to innovate.

657

:

And, uh, we also have our tech integration

program, which is, we're talking here,

658

:

tech integration, we have a whole nother.

659

:

Vertical, and that one is focused.

660

:

It's sort of a hybrid between our two

houses that we have now because the

661

:

person that takes that class will come out

with a guard guard, uh, even in setting

662

:

in a GSOC, you got to have that under

California law, but you're going to come

663

:

out with some secure, you know, like an

A plus and a cabling cert, a drone cert.

664

:

So it's, it's kind of a, it's

really, it's kind of geared toward

665

:

that role, that person who's

going to set between those things.

666

:

So we're excited to launch that.

667

:

Kevin Lewis: Yeah, on the physical

side, we're getting ready to launch

668

:

in January, our next year of training.

669

:

Um, but then also, uh, like he said, we

have the tech integration, uh, academy

670

:

that's sitting there waiting to get going.

671

:

Um, and, um.

672

:

You know, that's, that's kind

of where we have to go now.

673

:

We have a drone program that's

in progress now, uh, with, uh,

674

:

you know, so we're incorporating

that into to all of our stuff.

675

:

We have, uh, virtual patrol officers with

a major metropolitan police department.

676

:

So, you know, the, the role

of security continues to grow.

677

:

And along with that, the, the, um,

Executive Protection on the physical

678

:

side need to be able to grow with that.

679

:

You know, it's always going to come down.

680

:

You've got to have people, right?

681

:

But at the same time, we have to,

we have accounts that have robots.

682

:

We have accounts that have G socks.

683

:

We have accounts that have, um.

684

:

that have a full cyber team.

685

:

We have our OSINT side, you know, and all

of this is happening at the same time.

686

:

We're, we're popping drones for

surveillance on, you know, communities

687

:

that we work with because, you

know, people are trying to crawl

688

:

into their backyard, you know, so.

689

:

It's a, it's a much, you know, easier way

to be sitting at a house on a residence

690

:

and pop a drone who has some night vision

on it and be able to track somebody

691

:

who's trying to get on the property.

692

:

So this is where all of this is going now.

693

:

And, you know, the, the, the

physical side needs to kind of

694

:

step up their game and, and start.

695

:

Uh, looking at how to make this

a fully integrated, holistic

696

:

approach to security all the time.

697

:

Not just, you know, hey, I need

you to go do, fix this problem.

698

:

It needs to be working

together all the time.

699

:

Phelim: And I want to pounce, I

know this is not the topic of this,

700

:

uh, podcast, but January 2020, I do

remember I got on people that trained

701

:

UAV flying, drone flying, and some

other people who had dabbled in it.

702

:

And back then we said, you know

what, maybe we'll need an FAA

703

:

license for every operator.

704

:

Are we talking about that type of UAV

or are we talking about one that's

705

:

permissible under municipal law

that you don't need an FAA license?

706

:

Lee McWhorter: I would say both.

707

:

I mean, our program is going to

do the FAA license for, for larger

708

:

drones, um, for the tech integration.

709

:

Um, but the capabilities of these

small drones have grown so much

710

:

just like the military is doing.

711

:

I mean, I'm sure this is happening with

Kevin and our team already, but I mean, if

712

:

I imagine myself, I'm just a geek, but if

I'm an executive protector and I can get

713

:

an 89 4K little drone that I can carry.

714

:

I'm going to have that bad boy with me.

715

:

I don't know when it might come out,

but I don't have to have any rules.

716

:

I can pop it up, see over that

hill, see what's coming at me.

717

:

You know, so, you know, and so I

could, I would probably have one.

718

:

And they've gotten so capable.

719

:

It's like I have everything in tech.

720

:

You know, it doubles and

gets smaller and faster

721

:

Kevin Lewis: every year.

722

:

Yeah, I mean, that's the integration.

723

:

We were learning how to now, uh, not just

do the quick, you know, pop the drone,

724

:

look at the residents, make sure there's

nobody around the area, but also like,

725

:

you know, hey, the client wants to be,

you know, you'd be more low profile,

726

:

so how can we do that with left bodies?

727

:

Well, we can pop a drone, we can set

it over on a light pole, it can watch

728

:

the client from there, you know, we

can set up, uh, surveillance cars,

729

:

we can do all kinds of stuff now

that we didn't have access to to,

730

:

uh, before, but I, I do agree with

Lee that it's going to take both.

731

:

I mean, you do have to have your,

your FAA license to fly a drone.

732

:

So a lot of, uh, the residential

security teams now are requiring that.

733

:

Um, I notice, uh, World Protection

Group, they, they've been asking

734

:

for that for years now, right?

735

:

And, uh, and I took notice of

that because I'm like, Ooh, well,

736

:

there's another aspect, right?

737

:

This is a place where an EP guy can

specialize too, like a TCSM, but

738

:

also be able to do, you know, the

drones and things like that as well.

739

:

I mean, it just kind of opens up, you

know, you to get hired better, right?

740

:

So, so we always encourage the guys

like, hey, get in, do extra training

741

:

on stuff that's going to get you

hired, you know, security driver's

742

:

certificate, a medical, right?

743

:

If you're an EMT, that's, everybody

wants one of those on their teams.

744

:

Everybody wants a guy that can

handle the cyber and the drone and

745

:

all that kind of stuff too, because.

746

:

When we're traveling around the

world, we need all that, right?

747

:

We need to

748

:

Phelim: be able to That's definitely

something I need as a, as an

749

:

extra podcast session, I think.

750

:

I think we need to do that.

751

:

Would you be able I'll find some,

I'll find, I'll find some trainers

752

:

and some operators and we can, we can

do an entire Maybe I'll ask Kent from

753

:

WPG and, uh, we can we can all do it.

754

:

Sounds cool.

755

:

Sounds good.

756

:

All right.

757

:

Well, thanks very much for coming on.

758

:

I appreciate, uh, this is a bit different

because we're talking integration.

759

:

Therefore there's two of you and we're

integrating the, uh, the, the talk.

760

:

Um, I know you've, uh,

supported the number of virtual

761

:

events, uh, over the years.

762

:

So, so thank you very much

for, for, for doing this.

763

:

Um, I really appreciate you coming on and,

uh, I, I feel this actually will help the

764

:

Protector, which I think is what we're.

765

:

We're trying to, I shouldn't be so

surprised, but I, but I, but I, but I, but

766

:

I do think this will help the community.

767

:

Um, Kevin and Lee, thanks

very much for coming on.

768

:

This has been another fantastic edition

of the Circuit Magazine podcast.

769

:

Lee McWhorter: Thanks

so much for having us.

770

:

It's been a

771

:

Kevin Lewis: blast.

772

:

Phelim: Well, thank you

very much, Lee and Kevin.

773

:

I've really waited a long time

to get them on the podcast.

774

:

So I'm really, really.

775

:

pleased about today's

integrated EP trading session.

776

:

I'm back with Shaun West.

777

:

Shaun, what are some of the

high level things you've taken

778

:

away from today's session?

779

:

Well,

780

:

Shaun West: it's really interesting

actually, because I've done a lot of

781

:

awesome training myself, and I love

the tools that it gives you, and

782

:

it becomes really quite addictive.

783

:

So it's really interesting to hear

how Lee and Kevin spoke about it,

784

:

the tools that they're developing and

training individuals in, and to get

785

:

their, their take on the OSINT space.

786

:

So no, I actually really enjoyed it.

787

:

And yeah, lots of stuff for

788

:

Lee McWhorter: discussion.

789

:

Phelim: Maybe again, our, our

listeners will think, well,

790

:

this would be very interesting.

791

:

And, uh, the, the, the, the whole circuit,

the whole EP community are very good at

792

:

doing courses and are very diligent at,

you know, self improvement, but, but

793

:

maybe it's, it's worth, as we discussed

with Lee and Kevin, you know, seeing the

794

:

parameters of that, because, um, you know,

what does your principal expect of you?

795

:

Uh, what would be a nice to

have and what would be totally,

796

:

totally out of the wheelhouse?

797

:

Like, would, would, would your principal

expect you to fix his very expensive car?

798

:

Uh, it would be a nice

feature, wouldn't it?

799

:

You know, to have, to have a

mechanic on board, but it's,

800

:

but it's not quite, your job.

801

:

Do you see where I'm

going with that, Shaun?

802

:

Shaun West: No, I do.

803

:

And I think it depends what sort of end

of the market you operate in, because

804

:

if you're working with the ultra,

ultra high net worth individuals,

805

:

they don't employ a bodyguard to,

I don't know, cook their main meal.

806

:

They have a chef.

807

:

They don't employ bodyguards

to trim the garden.

808

:

They have a gardener.

809

:

They have the money and the funds.

810

:

to employ the best people in the game

who are specialists at what they do.

811

:

However, when you go down the market,

maybe there's some people that,

812

:

you know, are very wealthy or very

shrewd with their money and the

813

:

more value add you can bring, the

more valuable you become to them.

814

:

So there is a space for broadening

your knowledge and bringing that value.

815

:

But I think at that top end of

the market, it's always going

816

:

to be specialists that are

817

:

Phelim: seeked out.

818

:

Yeah.

819

:

And, and, and so maybe your,

your value and, and a, and a

820

:

lot of the community kind of.

821

:

advertise themselves as

concierge services as well.

822

:

And in some geographies, that's all

one can be technically, a concierge

823

:

service, a signpost, um, a facilitator.

824

:

You, you know, you, do you remember

that episode with Kenji Okamoto

825

:

just before the Tokyo Olympics?

826

:

Um, he, he sort of said, Well, I'm not

allowed to have any use of force at all,

827

:

so one of the magic features he manages

to do is make sure the penthouse lift

828

:

is reserved for the penthouse guest.

829

:

It's just such a small thing, but it's

totally within the signposting agenda.

830

:

Have you come to have

to signpost yourself?

831

:

You know, has anyone said, oh,

Can you tell me about AV or IT or

832

:

TSCM and, and then you're like,

aha, I know the right person.

833

:

Shaun West: Absolutely.

834

:

And that's come to me many times.

835

:

And I've seen it as my duty, as I

went up through an organization in a

836

:

past life where I became the director

of security in a family office and

837

:

was being the director of security.

838

:

I didn't need to be an expert

in all things security because I

839

:

brought in subcontractors that were

specialists in different fields.

840

:

And one of my duties, which I found was

whilst gaining knowledge in different

841

:

areas, whether that's, you know,

the capabilities of canines who are

842

:

providing canine security, whether it's

cyber specialists, whatever it may be,

843

:

TCSM specialists, I'd always increase

my knowledge in all of these areas.

844

:

But exactly what I said,

I was also a signpost.

845

:

I had a very good black book of vendors

that I invented a new specialist in

846

:

that field, and we're good at that task.

847

:

So whilst growing that knowledge

yourself, whilst you're not the expert,

848

:

you have enough knowledge to be able to

question the experts and also to know

849

:

they're not pulling your pants down as

850

:

Lee McWhorter: well.

851

:

Phelim: That's, that's right.

852

:

You need to be dangerous enough,

but without actually being

853

:

that, uh, that, that expert.

854

:

Wonderful.

855

:

No, I think, I think this is good

because, because honestly we have had.

856

:

Very good questions at events that

have literally gotten to the, you know,

857

:

cut to the chase and they say, right?

858

:

What am I supposed to learn

in the world of cyber?

859

:

What is it?

860

:

Um, so, so, so today's session

I think goes a longer way to,

861

:

to, to, to helping us with that.

862

:

OSINT skills, research skills, signposting

skills, appreciation of who you're going

863

:

to call, which Which I think is a lot more

honest than saying, right, well, now you

864

:

need to learn to code in Python, because.

865

:

Because, fun as that could be, if you

are so inclined, it's not your day job.

866

:

So, what's next?

867

:

What's coming up for the magazine

and the community as a whole?

868

:

Shaun West: As always, we're

working on the next issue, and

869

:

we've got some more podcasts.

870

:

Guests lined up for interview.

871

:

Um, and also it was great to see you

at the Coast Protection World event.

872

:

That was an excellent event where

we met up with many people, many

873

:

of our readers, subscribers,

and yeah, what a fantastic day.

874

:

Phelim: Yeah, actually, sorry, um,

I should have mentioned, thank you

875

:

listeners who came up to us and said,

You like, uh, what, uh, what we're doing.

876

:

Um, uh, I don't know if you

wanted your names broadcast,

877

:

so we'll just say thank you.

878

:

Uh, it was really a great pleasure.

879

:

Some people came up with specific episodes

they liked, uh, some people came up

880

:

with, uh, other very nice things to say.

881

:

Um, it was very much appreciated.

882

:

Um, so, so thank you for stopping by the

Circuit Magazine store and of course thank

883

:

you to CP World for hosting us, uh, again.

884

:

Always, always lovely to,

uh, to, to, to see everyone.

885

:

I'm very much looking forward to the

9th Annual Executive Security and

886

:

Close Protection Technology Forum

on the 25th of January in London.

887

:

Uh, many, many people actually

will People know about it.

888

:

Many people took postcards and details

and if you want to take a trip across

889

:

the pond, if you're in the States, then

please get to get your booking in now.

890

:

A common question, I know this

is, I'm doing an extended plug.

891

:

Sorry, the extended plug for this.

892

:

A common question is, Um,

does it clash with Davos?

893

:

No, it doesn't.

894

:

It is after Davos, so you're, you're all

good, if anybody was in fact wondering.

895

:

I thought I'd just do

frequently asked questions.

896

:

But yeah, integrated protection, an

honest look from COVID 6, Lee and Kevin,

897

:

thank you very much for coming on.

898

:

Shaun West and myself have very

much appreciated the time you've

899

:

spent with us at the podcast.

900

:

So, Thank you very much, and this

has once again been another fantastic

901

:

edition of the Circuit Magazine podcast.

902

:

Kevin Lewis: You have been listening

to the Circuit Magazine podcast.

903

:

Be sure to subscribe and be

sure to not miss an episode.

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