Becoming a Media Safety Advisor - What You need to Know | Ken Perry

Ken Perry: 00:00:00

News is news.

Ken Perry: 00:00:01

Everybody thinks we've, we've all worked on this, on the circuits

Ken Perry: 00:00:04

and seen contracts come and go.

Ken Perry: 00:00:05

News is ongoing and it's getting bigger.

Ken Perry: 00:00:08

The coverage is getting bigger.

Ken Perry: 00:00:09

That's for you.

Ken Perry: 00:00:17

Welcome to the circuit.

Ken Perry: 00:00:19

Scene, the number one source of information on protection matters.

Ken Perry: 00:00:23

The industry leading magazine for all security professionals who

Ken Perry: 00:00:26

want to stay ahead of the game.

Phelim Rowe: 00:00:33

Working in media protection today, we're delighted to welcome

Phelim Rowe: 00:00:37

founder of Cosan consultancy, Ken Perry to the Serga magazine podcast.

Phelim Rowe: 00:00:42

John MOS and myself, uh, are delighted to welcome him on,

Phelim Rowe: 00:00:45

because I think this is a key area.

Phelim Rowe: 00:00:48

A lot of people don't quite understand.

Phelim Rowe: 00:00:50

What do you think we're gonna get out of today, John?

Phelim Rowe: 00:00:52

Well, we're going.

Jon Moss: 00:00:54

A look at what it's like to work in this really

Jon Moss: 00:00:57

specialized sector of the industry.

Jon Moss: 00:01:00

So, you know, there's gonna be some stuff that's familiar to all of us within

Jon Moss: 00:01:04

protection across the board, and it's probably gonna be, you know, not so

Jon Moss: 00:01:09

much the textbook stuff, but the other little parts of our job that you don't

Jon Moss: 00:01:14

necessarily think about, when you're on your training course, and when you're

Jon Moss: 00:01:17

in your early transition, It it's the other parts that we bolt on to make

Jon Moss: 00:01:23

ourself valuable and, uh, valuable to that, uh, the, the, that client, and also

Jon Moss: 00:01:31

useful in the environment and in this situation, the client is very different

Jon Moss: 00:01:37

and the environment is different, uh, to most of us outside of hostile

Phelim Rowe: 00:01:41

protection.

Phelim Rowe: 00:01:43

Because this is a very different skill set and operation than

Phelim Rowe: 00:01:47

a traditional protective role.

Phelim Rowe: 00:01:49

People are going towards the danger.

Phelim Rowe: 00:01:51

The, the goal is to get the story it's to be in harm's way.

Phelim Rowe: 00:01:55

And, and I guess that's a very difficult position for the protector.

Phelim Rowe: 00:01:59

Isn't it?

Jon Moss: 00:02:00

Yeah, definitely.

Jon Moss: 00:02:01

It goes against.

Jon Moss: 00:02:02

Everything, all of your natural inclinations, you know, as a protector.

Jon Moss: 00:02:07

So, and here's the thing.

Jon Moss: 00:02:09

If you've, if you've transitioned from the military, as most people

Jon Moss: 00:02:13

do, who go into that line of work, then actually you're, you're probably

Jon Moss: 00:02:18

slightly better cut out for it.

Jon Moss: 00:02:20

And the, sooner, the transition from the military, uh, probably

Jon Moss: 00:02:26

the better equipped you are.

Jon Moss: 00:02:27

And the reason I say that is because you.

Jon Moss: 00:02:30

in the military, we are going towards danger.

Jon Moss: 00:02:33

in many cases.

Jon Moss: 00:02:35

And so it's only when we come into security.

Jon Moss: 00:02:39

And the longer you build your career as a security advisor, a consultant,

Jon Moss: 00:02:45

a protector, we are always trying to remove the client from danger.

Jon Moss: 00:02:52

Now, if you do that with the press, with journalists, They're

Jon Moss: 00:02:56

never gonna get their job done.

Jon Moss: 00:02:58

They're not gonna get the story and you are not gonna stay long in employment.

Jon Moss: 00:03:02

I

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:02

wouldn't imagine that's a tricky balance.

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:04

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:05

You think saying no to a high net worth principle is difficult.

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:08

This is sort of now counterintuitive for the, for the, for the

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:11

role of protecting media.

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:14

Um, so yeah, great friend of the, uh, industry, great friend

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:17

of the circuit magazine and the association, um, Wonderful.

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:21

We we're very much looking forward to hearing from Ken Perry, founder.

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:24

Cosin consultancy on working in media security,

Ken Perry: 00:03:36

and now let's meet one of the contributors to the circuit magazine.

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:51

Media protection for the journalist community today,

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:54

John Moss and myself are delighted to welcome Ken Perry, founder of

Phelim Rowe: 00:03:58

cosent consultancy to the podcast.

Phelim Rowe: 00:04:01

It's a pleasure to have you here.

Phelim Rowe: 00:04:02

How are you doing?

Ken Perry: 00:04:03

I'm doing well.

Ken Perry: 00:04:03

Thank you very much, guys.

Ken Perry: 00:04:04

A pleasure, uh, being here and thank you for having me all.

Ken Perry: 00:04:07

It's

Phelim Rowe: 00:04:07

it's, it's wonderful to have you on and, and also

Phelim Rowe: 00:04:09

bringing the pages of the magazine to life with this very podcast.

Phelim Rowe: 00:04:13

So media protection, let's go into our three quick fire questions.

Phelim Rowe: 00:04:19

What is the biggest challenge we're trying to solve here?

Phelim Rowe: 00:04:22

What's what's wrong that, you know, needs a solution right

Ken Perry: 00:04:26

now.

Ken Perry: 00:04:26

I think over recent years, I've been doing media protection since that, you

Ken Perry: 00:04:30

know, 2010, early 2010, I think over the kind of last five, four to five

Ken Perry: 00:04:35

years, there's been a big, um, spike in the threat towards journalists.

Ken Perry: 00:04:40

A lot of that's do with the fake news narratives that have came out.

Ken Perry: 00:04:43

Certainly some of the bigger networks are, are more targeted for.

Ken Perry: 00:04:47

And generally, you know, the whole online abuse, which gets, can be folded up when

Ken Perry: 00:04:53

journalists are out on the ground as well.

Ken Perry: 00:04:55

So that's why I think nine and recent events in Ukraine, the

Ken Perry: 00:04:59

demand for, um, Protection within the journalist circles, whether it

Ken Perry: 00:05:04

be print journalists or, uh, news networks, it's, it's greatly increased.

Ken Perry: 00:05:08

And,

Phelim Rowe: 00:05:09

and then, well, what about you, you know, where does your

Phelim Rowe: 00:05:12

passion for this, uh, come from?

Ken Perry: 00:05:13

So, um, my first job was the Haitian earthquake back in 2010.

Ken Perry: 00:05:17

I'd just been out there previously in, in Haiti.

Ken Perry: 00:05:20

Um, just doing a kind of run in the mill close protection,

Ken Perry: 00:05:23

executive protection role.

Ken Perry: 00:05:25

Um, I left, uh, luckily just before the earthquake happens.

Ken Perry: 00:05:29

And I got an opportunity through various kinda networks of, I got a

Ken Perry: 00:05:34

call to go back out and work for a large American news network in Haiti.

Ken Perry: 00:05:39

Um, and I noticed straight away that there was, you know, there was no courses back

Ken Perry: 00:05:44

then to, to be trained and working on just how to kinda learn as we went along.

Ken Perry: 00:05:48

And, and, and certainly with the guys that I, I was working with at the time,

Ken Perry: 00:05:52

but I, yeah, I noticed quite quickly there was a, a different set, a skillset.

Ken Perry: 00:05:56

Needed to work with, uh, journalists back then, you know, and, and certainly,

Ken Perry: 00:06:00

you know, the attraction to it, as well as that, um, you know, over the.

Ken Perry: 00:06:04

Plus years that I've been involved in it, you really, you get the wi

Ken Perry: 00:06:08

witness moments in history firsthand.

Phelim Rowe: 00:06:10

Absolutely.

Phelim Rowe: 00:06:10

No, that's, that's very striking and I, I, I can imagine that many protectors

Phelim Rowe: 00:06:15

may be they're they're already in EP, uh, might be drawn to this, uh, type

Phelim Rowe: 00:06:20

of work, uh, for, for that very reason.

Phelim Rowe: 00:06:21

Uh, so, so then for them, for the, for the uninitiated, those who have not

Phelim Rowe: 00:06:26

dipped their toes in the water and, and don't know about this field, What do

Phelim Rowe: 00:06:30

you think they should better understand before, uh, trying to, to get into it?

Phelim Rowe: 00:06:34

Well,

Ken Perry: 00:06:35

um, you know, on the courses that I teach, I, I kind of advise the

Ken Perry: 00:06:38

guys when they come in, before they start, the course is kind of take the post

Ken Perry: 00:06:42

protection, executive protection head off and set it the aside for a little bit.

Ken Perry: 00:06:47

Um, The skillset that's required to work with with, with journalists is, is,

Ken Perry: 00:06:52

you know, can completely different from close protection or executive protection.

Ken Perry: 00:06:56

And the reason for that is, is that you're, you know, you're a one man band.

Ken Perry: 00:07:00

You you're there to.

Ken Perry: 00:07:01

Know, help the guys produce the story on the ground as well, which, you

Ken Perry: 00:07:05

know, can, um, can be from helping the camera man out to get a, this picture,

Ken Perry: 00:07:10

get a shot, get a good satellite, um, a connection for, for live shots.

Ken Perry: 00:07:16

So it's, you know, actually a very, um, small amount of time is, is

Ken Perry: 00:07:20

needed to actually give security advice and do security on the grounds.

Ken Perry: 00:07:25

Well, to be successful working within the.

Ken Perry: 00:07:28

You've gotta like when with a kind of varied attitude to helping

Ken Perry: 00:07:32

the correspondence, the fixer, the producer, whoever that may.

Ken Perry: 00:07:37

Yeah,

Jon Moss: 00:07:38

that's really interesting.

Jon Moss: 00:07:39

That can, so, you know what you're saying now is you there's, there's no room to

Jon Moss: 00:07:43

be passive on this sort of gig, right?

Jon Moss: 00:07:45

You, you need to be very proactive and ready to roll your sleeves up and

Jon Moss: 00:07:50

get involved in the job there, which I mean, you know, is something that we

Jon Moss: 00:07:54

should all take that kind of mindset regardless of the sector that we work in.

Jon Moss: 00:07:58

But you know, one of the points that you alluded to there quite often, you

Jon Moss: 00:08:03

know, you're on the ground, on your.

Jon Moss: 00:08:05

You're not part of a team necessarily, or yes, you are part of a team,

Jon Moss: 00:08:10

but it's not a security team.

Jon Moss: 00:08:12

So you know, that, that makes us realize that, okay,

Jon Moss: 00:08:16

teamwork's gotta be a big skill.

Jon Moss: 00:08:18

Is that something you can speak to?

Jon Moss: 00:08:19

Is that something that, you know, you found in your experience?

Ken Perry: 00:08:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Ken Perry: 00:08:24

And that, you know, working with, uh, most news teams, the personalities are

Ken Perry: 00:08:27

quite similar, you know, you're dealing with, uh, you know, correspondence.

Ken Perry: 00:08:30

So you've got a lot of pressure on them to, to make live shots.

Ken Perry: 00:08:34

And get their lines right.

Ken Perry: 00:08:36

And for doing reports and that type of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:08:37

So, you know, the correspondent has a different personality than that.

Ken Perry: 00:08:40

That's say the producer or the cameraman, it's very high paced,

Ken Perry: 00:08:44

very high stress for, for the guys on the ground when they have to meet,

Ken Perry: 00:08:49

you know, live shot deadlines and, and live shot locations and getting

Ken Perry: 00:08:53

signals and that, that sort of stuff.

Ken Perry: 00:08:54

So wherever you can, can help any one of those individuals, you

Ken Perry: 00:08:58

know, successfully do their job.

Ken Perry: 00:09:01

It's it breaks down barriers very quickly.

Ken Perry: 00:09:04

And just integrate you as part of the scene.

Jon Moss: 00:09:08

Yeah.

Jon Moss: 00:09:08

I can see that.

Jon Moss: 00:09:09

And, you know, journalists.

Jon Moss: 00:09:11

A very different type of client.

Jon Moss: 00:09:14

Uh, you know, when you consider the traits, I mean, these, these are, uh,

Jon Moss: 00:09:18

guys and gods who have to put themself at great risk to get out there, to

Jon Moss: 00:09:23

get the story, which, you know, that must be a nightmare for a protector.

Jon Moss: 00:09:28

I mean, how do you deal with that?

Jon Moss: 00:09:29

How do you prepare yourself for that kind of shift in

Jon Moss: 00:09:33

dynamic for that type of client?

Ken Perry: 00:09:36

Um, Know, you've gotta get your head into the story straight away.

Ken Perry: 00:09:39

I, and it's fast paced, you know, it's, um, most, most of the guys that work for

Ken Perry: 00:09:44

they're probably on 30 minutes, notice to move, they get the phone calls, you

Ken Perry: 00:09:48

know, a narrative values is breaking news waits for no one you've gotta go.

Ken Perry: 00:09:52

You've gotta be ready to go.

Ken Perry: 00:09:53

Um, as soon as you get ready to go find out where you're going, it's

Ken Perry: 00:09:56

just, um, um, you know, as soon as I hit the airport, I switch off from my

Ken Perry: 00:10:00

own personal life and get straight.

Ken Perry: 00:10:02

To the story.

Ken Perry: 00:10:03

Um, and over the years have been educated by journalists on how to, um,

Ken Perry: 00:10:08

gather information using social media, the right way, that type of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:10:12

So the more you can bring to the party before you meet the actual team where

Ken Perry: 00:10:16

it be on, on location or in an airport, like Hey throw or whatever it may be,

Ken Perry: 00:10:21

um, and just add a little bit of value and, and help them achieve their aim.

Ken Perry: 00:10:25

That's um, you know, I just, you know, alluded to before that's,

Ken Perry: 00:10:29

that's, that's the name of the game?

Ken Perry: 00:10:31

Um, making them hopefully get a successful story.

Jon Moss: 00:10:35

Yeah.

Jon Moss: 00:10:36

I can see that, uh, it's the type of work that your skill set is going to develop a

Jon Moss: 00:10:44

lot during the time that you're involved in this sector and doing this work.

Jon Moss: 00:10:48

And if you're working at it regularly, you know, you, you're gonna learn

Jon Moss: 00:10:52

a lot as you said, you know, on the job and also from the client itself,

Jon Moss: 00:10:57

which I think is a fairly unique.

Jon Moss: 00:11:00

Uh, sector in that regard, when we consider, you know, that

Jon Moss: 00:11:04

doesn't really happen so much in any other form of protection.

Jon Moss: 00:11:08

Um, but you know, that said, you've gotta start off somewhere.

Jon Moss: 00:11:14

So you, you know, you were fortunate as you say, you know, you were in the right

Jon Moss: 00:11:17

place at the right time to get your lucky.

Jon Moss: 00:11:20

but you know, if you're looking to get into the industry to break into the

Jon Moss: 00:11:25

industry, what are the fundamental skills that you need to have in your toolkit

Jon Moss: 00:11:29

from day one to start and where can you go to harness and to acquire those skills?

Jon Moss: 00:11:35

Um, well,

Ken Perry: 00:11:36

first of all, um, you know, we teach, I, I wrote and

Ken Perry: 00:11:40

developed a media safety advisors course, actually, during COVID.

Ken Perry: 00:11:43

And this is before Ukraine happens.

Ken Perry: 00:11:45

And that was just using my kind of, um, experience and skills that

Ken Perry: 00:11:49

I've learned over the, over the years and, and put it down on paper.

Ken Perry: 00:11:53

Um, that was fairly successful up until, you know, January Ukraine happens.

Ken Perry: 00:11:58

I deployed out the Ukraine in, in January and, um, I had to rewrite

Ken Perry: 00:12:03

the course once, once he came back after a couple of months out there.

Ken Perry: 00:12:07

So obviously doing a course prepare you as well, but, um, little things.

Ken Perry: 00:12:13

You know when you're there, you're primarily, well, you

Ken Perry: 00:12:16

are the you're the team medic.

Ken Perry: 00:12:17

So anything happens.

Ken Perry: 00:12:18

You're the first person that's going to deal with a casualty or, or an injury.

Ken Perry: 00:12:21

So, I mean, my biggest device is, is, is people that keep up their meds,

Ken Perry: 00:12:25

skill sets, uh, doing, you know, upgrade in certainly to the fr qualification.

Ken Perry: 00:12:30

That's what all the major news networks are looking for.

Ken Perry: 00:12:33

They're looking.

Ken Perry: 00:12:34

For, um, guys and girls really to be minimum FRA free.

Ken Perry: 00:12:38

Um, and, and Frank four, that that's, that's the deciding factor for a lot

Ken Perry: 00:12:43

of the networks to, um, They employ people, my weather app, be back, watch

Ken Perry: 00:12:48

on the streets of London, something we're dealing with at the, at the moment.

Ken Perry: 00:12:52

Unfortunately, the Queens, um, you know, are funeral and what's going on there.

Ken Perry: 00:12:56

There's a lot of back Watchers in London, two days, school, myself, and just seeing

Ken Perry: 00:12:59

how many back Watchers are on the ground.

Ken Perry: 00:13:01

So potentially as we news networks, like before they look for people who

Ken Perry: 00:13:04

have, uh, done some, some form, of course, like a media safety advisors.

Ken Perry: 00:13:09

Or, um, no, it's not.

Ken Perry: 00:13:11

Or, but additionally, the, the med med skill sets are very, very

Ken Perry: 00:13:15

important, um, qualification have.

Phelim Rowe: 00:13:19

And, and so, and so can I be interested to, to, to, to learn because

Phelim Rowe: 00:13:22

you know, we do get fan mail about the tactical medic versus paramedic debate.

Phelim Rowe: 00:13:26

We, we do get fan mail about that.

Phelim Rowe: 00:13:28

Um, so, so, so obviously operating in London, um, there are certain.

Phelim Rowe: 00:13:33

Considerations restrictions and, and things like that.

Phelim Rowe: 00:13:36

Um, uh, but operating in a hot zone or maybe operating in the DRC, um, or, or

Phelim Rowe: 00:13:41

car it's a very different ball game.

Phelim Rowe: 00:13:43

So these skill sets are very, very desirable, but, but are

Phelim Rowe: 00:13:48

there any limitations, um, given the, the, the legal framework.

Ken Perry: 00:13:56

Um, no, there's not, I, I kind of know what, um, the question

Ken Perry: 00:13:58

you're asking and, and, you know, if you're in the, the middle of the DRC,

Ken Perry: 00:14:02

where, where I've been before and, you know, there's, there's no good

Ken Perry: 00:14:07

medical infrastructure, uh, around.

Ken Perry: 00:14:10

You're you're the only, only person that's gonna treat that

Ken Perry: 00:14:13

casually until you get them back.

Ken Perry: 00:14:15

So, you know, things about, I know there's a lot of legalities about putting drips

Ken Perry: 00:14:20

in giving medication, that sort of stuff working, you know, in the likes of the UK,

Ken Perry: 00:14:24

or certainly parts of Europe and stuff.

Ken Perry: 00:14:26

But.

Ken Perry: 00:14:27

You will go into the more remote areas and even certain places, not certain

Ken Perry: 00:14:30

places, but actually in Ukraine right now, given the threat that's over

Ken Perry: 00:14:35

there, there are no limitations, really.

Ken Perry: 00:14:37

I mean, if you're gonna save a life and you do whatever's necessary,

Ken Perry: 00:14:40

so you save a life, you know,

Phelim Rowe: 00:14:42

Yeah, absolutely.

Phelim Rowe: 00:14:43

And, and, uh, you know, that's, that's, that's great.

Phelim Rowe: 00:14:45

That's great work and, and great if you have that skill set.

Phelim Rowe: 00:14:48

Um, but then, but then let me reconcile that, because earlier you said that,

Phelim Rowe: 00:14:51

you know, sometimes you have to put your EP hat down or, or maybe you advise

Phelim Rowe: 00:14:56

people to, to, to put their EP hat down.

Phelim Rowe: 00:14:58

Um, how, how does that work in practice?

Ken Perry: 00:15:01

Um, I think what, you know, once you go on the grind, it's

Ken Perry: 00:15:03

I, the reason why, you know, I, I, I advise that to the people come

Ken Perry: 00:15:07

on the course it's, you know, it's.

Ken Perry: 00:15:11

A small percentage of your time is gonna be spent, spent actually

Ken Perry: 00:15:15

doing security work, standing around a camera, that type of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:15:19

It's, you're there more to help the production of the job.

Ken Perry: 00:15:21

So if you've got a wrong and, and get a cameraman, a cup of coffee or

Ken Perry: 00:15:25

a maintenance set done in front of them, because these guys literally

Ken Perry: 00:15:29

forget how to eat and drink.

Ken Perry: 00:15:31

Cause they're so busy.

Ken Perry: 00:15:33

So stressed getting, you know, trying to put a package together.

Ken Perry: 00:15:37

That's gotta go out for a deadline.

Ken Perry: 00:15:39

Um, those small things go a long way in building up

Ken Perry: 00:15:42

relationships and making the team.

Ken Perry: 00:15:45

Dealing with local drivers and fixers, making sure they're included as in part

Ken Perry: 00:15:49

of the team, you're just trying to bring balance to the force, so to speak, you

Ken Perry: 00:15:54

know, um, dealing with financial matters, going by, you know, rations, if you need

Ken Perry: 00:15:59

them and preparing vehicles going out the next day, um, writing risk assessments.

Ken Perry: 00:16:05

Massively important, um, right now and, and, and well, any environment, but more

Ken Perry: 00:16:10

so in, in Ukraine right now, our guys develop, um, every time they move, they've

Ken Perry: 00:16:15

got a, write a risk assessment and those risk assess go right to the top of the

Ken Perry: 00:16:19

news channels, to the head of the, you know, international news, uh, before

Ken Perry: 00:16:23

a move can be, can be cleared to go.

Ken Perry: 00:16:25

So you actually, when you get on the ground and work with the news team, it's

Ken Perry: 00:16:28

extremely busy, extremely busy, you know?

Ken Perry: 00:16:31

Um, and, and that's just part of making it.

Ken Perry: 00:16:35

And then, especially in Ukraine right now, the amount of hardware that's

Ken Perry: 00:16:40

being used in Ukraine, you know, the Ukrainians are being supplied weapons

Ken Perry: 00:16:43

from all over the Western world.

Ken Perry: 00:16:46

Um, often reporters will look at you and say, well, what's the capability

Ken Perry: 00:16:50

of that weapon and you need to know it.

Ken Perry: 00:16:52

So constantly educating yourself on different weapon systems

Ken Perry: 00:16:57

and capabilities and tactics.

Ken Perry: 00:16:59

And, and there's a big threat comes from the air as well.

Ken Perry: 00:17:02

Drones, that type of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:17:04

Yeah.

Ken Perry: 00:17:05

On a daily basis, you're a very busy person.

Phelim Rowe: 00:17:08

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe: 00:17:08

That sounds, sounds, um, quite, quite challenging and quite dynamic.

Phelim Rowe: 00:17:12

Um, especially, especially in Ukraine right now.

Phelim Rowe: 00:17:15

Um, yeah.

Phelim Rowe: 00:17:16

Does it help then if you have a military background, um, is, is, is, is that

Phelim Rowe: 00:17:20

the type type of audience we we're gonna really talk to with this podcast?

Phelim Rowe: 00:17:24

Or could, could it, could it be learnt from someone that's been a general.

Ken Perry: 00:17:29

Okay.

Ken Perry: 00:17:29

I mean, that, there's, that, you know, that's a pretty straightforward

Ken Perry: 00:17:32

that answer to that question.

Ken Perry: 00:17:34

If you're gonna work in, I'd like to work in Ukraine without a milit

Ken Perry: 00:17:38

meat backgrounds, forget about it.

Ken Perry: 00:17:40

You know, no news teams would, would take on anybody.

Ken Perry: 00:17:44

It hasn't got a milit meat background for that reason, understand a milit

Ken Perry: 00:17:47

tactics on the Gros, that type of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:17:50

But that's it, um, way for guys working in, you know, the champions

Ken Perry: 00:17:55

league final, the Europe league final.

Ken Perry: 00:17:58

um, on the streets of London, right?

Ken Perry: 00:18:00

Covering the, the whole, um, the Queens funeral and that type of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:18:04

So during the back watch, there's, you know, you have the host down environment

Ken Perry: 00:18:08

deployments, which, you know, are typically you create, you know, a rack

Ken Perry: 00:18:11

of Afghanistan, that type of stuff.

Ken Perry: 00:18:13

Um, but you know, the back watch of capability and, and, and

Ken Perry: 00:18:16

doing large events like that.

Ken Perry: 00:18:18

I mean, you don't need to be military for that.

Ken Perry: 00:18:20

And we teach that again on the courses and how to work in rats and demonstration.

Ken Perry: 00:18:25

You know, with the amount of demonstrations that you get, you

Ken Perry: 00:18:28

know, in year, whether it be extension rebellion or, you know, we have Brexit

Ken Perry: 00:18:33

res demonstrations, that type of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:18:37

I mean, you don't need to be actually truth to that.

Jon Moss: 00:18:40

So, Ken, uh, historically, you know, this is an area that

Jon Moss: 00:18:44

I think it's fair to say has been dominated by former SF.

Jon Moss: 00:18:50

And I mean, is, is that something you would agree with first of.

Ken Perry: 00:18:54

Yeah, absolutely.

Ken Perry: 00:18:55

John, when I first started, it was, um, you know, mainly, um, SF or,

Ken Perry: 00:19:01

you know, kind of a late units, you know, within, you know, like

Ken Perry: 00:19:05

SF SG or, or, or Marines or, or Paraship regimen, that type of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:19:10

However, that's it.

Ken Perry: 00:19:12

One of the reasons why I wrote the course is that, you know, I was going back to

Ken Perry: 00:19:15

my clients and they were wanting the gold star option of, you know, an ex parachute

Ken Perry: 00:19:20

regiment guy or X, you know, sort.

Ken Perry: 00:19:24

Guy.

Ken Perry: 00:19:24

Um, and, and the threats got so big and the need for security has got

Ken Perry: 00:19:31

so, so big also it's that there's just not enough people to go around.

Ken Perry: 00:19:35

So that's why, you know, I kinda wrote the course, but, and, and when

Ken Perry: 00:19:38

you look at it, what have me been dealing with over the last 20 years?

Ken Perry: 00:19:42

Afghanistan, Iraq.

Ken Perry: 00:19:44

So there's a lot of non SF, uh, guys and girls out there with a hell of a

Ken Perry: 00:19:48

lot of operational knowledge that can bring lots to the table, you know?

Jon Moss: 00:19:53

Yeah, absolutely.

Jon Moss: 00:19:54

I can see that.

Jon Moss: 00:19:55

So would you say that this is a trend that's here to stay?

Jon Moss: 00:19:58

So, and what I'm thinking about is any listeners.

Jon Moss: 00:20:00

You know, who might not be working in this area, but might have half an eye on it.

Jon Moss: 00:20:05

Is, is this a safe area for them to start investing in, you know, getting

Jon Moss: 00:20:08

the training under their belt, you know, trying to take on some work in

Jon Moss: 00:20:12

this area, is, is it going to endure?

Jon Moss: 00:20:15

I

Ken Perry: 00:20:15

think so.

Ken Perry: 00:20:16

Um, you know, with the clients that I work for, I, I, I spoke to some often members,

Ken Perry: 00:20:20

you know, said, you know, in place of, I mean, how do we get a food on the ladder?

Ken Perry: 00:20:25

And most, most areas that's, that's quite, quite hard to do.

Ken Perry: 00:20:29

So I spoke to my client said, look, you know, if I bring, write this

Ken Perry: 00:20:32

course, share this course, the modules that are containing it.

Ken Perry: 00:20:35

And if they set that course, would you accept that and place off experience?

Ken Perry: 00:20:40

And they said, yeah.

Ken Perry: 00:20:41

And about 90% of the people I've got in the grounds now then Ukraine, other

Ken Perry: 00:20:47

areas never had that experience before.

Ken Perry: 00:20:49

So I think once, once, I mean, Ukraine's a good.

Ken Perry: 00:20:54

A good place to get started and get a couple of, you know,

Ken Perry: 00:20:58

experiences on the CV and stuff.

Ken Perry: 00:21:00

Um, and after that, I mean, news is news.

Ken Perry: 00:21:03

Everybody thinks we've all worked on the circuit, so, and

Ken Perry: 00:21:08

seen contracts come and go.

Ken Perry: 00:21:10

News is ongoing and it's getting bigger.

Ken Perry: 00:21:12

The coverage is get is getting bigger.

Ken Perry: 00:21:14

That's for sure.

Ken Perry: 00:21:15

Yeah.

Jon Moss: 00:21:16

And, uh, you know, in just thinking about that transition

Jon Moss: 00:21:20

period, you know, uh, it's, it's not necessarily gonna happen overnight.

Jon Moss: 00:21:26

So have you got any tips for, you know, what protectors can do to stay

Jon Moss: 00:21:31

patient and, and also at what point, you know, maybe they should look and.

Jon Moss: 00:21:37

Maybe I'm actually not suited for this line of work.

Jon Moss: 00:21:40

Um, you know, how, how do they recognize whether they're the right

Jon Moss: 00:21:44

person for the job and they just need to be persistent, you know, or if, if

Jon Moss: 00:21:48

they're just, you know, fundamentally not suited for this type of work.

Ken Perry: 00:21:53

Yeah, well, you know, the news business, it's not

Ken Perry: 00:21:56

for the fans heart, certainly.

Ken Perry: 00:21:57

Um, you know, the, the more hostile frontline stuff, I think if anybody

Ken Perry: 00:22:02

that's going to, and I, and I'm quite honest with any, any people that I

Ken Perry: 00:22:06

D deploy on the grounds, you know, you're going into a situation where

Ken Perry: 00:22:10

you are going to face incidents.

Ken Perry: 00:22:12

There's no doubt about it, and it's not a natural thing to go

Ken Perry: 00:22:15

towards the trouble when everybody else is, is leaving the trouble.

Ken Perry: 00:22:19

Somebody has to be very honest with themselves before they down that

Ken Perry: 00:22:22

road, is that are they, you know, willing and hard to go to a frontline

Ken Perry: 00:22:26

situation, um, or into the middle of, of a riot situation with a news team,

Ken Perry: 00:22:31

you know, it can be quite unnerving.

Ken Perry: 00:22:33

That's that's for sure.

Ken Perry: 00:22:34

So I mean that, that's a conversation somebody needs to have with themselves.

Ken Perry: 00:22:38

Um, and I think you're, you're quite right in what you said there also, John

Ken Perry: 00:22:41

it's it's, you've gotta keep persist.

Ken Perry: 00:22:43

I've had, you know, people, um, come to me and, you know, asking for, for a job.

Ken Perry: 00:22:48

And it's, you know, it's very much at the right time to get on there.

Ken Perry: 00:22:53

And, um, And some people, I review their CVS and say, well, maybe you wanna, you

Ken Perry: 00:22:58

know, go and, and do, you know, invest in a better, a better medical qualification.

Ken Perry: 00:23:03

And it's, it's a daily challenge.

Ken Perry: 00:23:06

People come, they, you know, they say, well, what about F plus have

Ken Perry: 00:23:08

done F plus or I've done Aeri course.

Ken Perry: 00:23:11

And the simple fact is, is that, you know, the client gets what the client wants

Ken Perry: 00:23:16

in the stipulation with all the big news networks is that the FRA course, uh, FRA

Ken Perry: 00:23:21

three frack four course is, is what they.

Ken Perry: 00:23:24

And I've, and I've spoken, you know, the guys and said like, you

Ken Perry: 00:23:28

know, you need to do a frack course.

Ken Perry: 00:23:30

They have went away and, and invested in themselves in, in that course.

Ken Perry: 00:23:33

So, um, yeah, medicals, you know, I've said it before, it's, it's

Ken Perry: 00:23:37

a huge part of, of whether you get deployed or not, you know?

Jon Moss: 00:23:42

So from your perspective, Ken, as, as a training provider yourself, what

Jon Moss: 00:23:47

advice can you give to our listeners?

Jon Moss: 00:23:50

Who are looking for a course, you know, and, and what, what are the kind

Jon Moss: 00:23:55

of things that they should be taken into account to assess whether that

Jon Moss: 00:23:58

training provider is going to adequately prepare them for this type of work?

Ken Perry: 00:24:06

Um, I mean, obviously the course content going, going by, you

Ken Perry: 00:24:09

know, reviews off, off that trainer or whatever, but, um, you know,

Ken Perry: 00:24:13

the share sort of fact off it is John is that there's, there's not.

Ken Perry: 00:24:17

Many people out there, um, provide a, this type of training.

Ken Perry: 00:24:21

You know, it's very hard to combat it specifically on, on what you

Ken Perry: 00:24:25

need to do on the ground you operate with, with the media team.

Ken Perry: 00:24:28

It's, you know, the, um, the kind of media safety it's always been there

Ken Perry: 00:24:32

in the backgrounds, and nobody's really been able to break into it.

Ken Perry: 00:24:36

Cause like you, you know, you said earlier it was predominantly for the

Ken Perry: 00:24:40

SF kind of community, but the need and the demands for security with,

Ken Perry: 00:24:45

um, news teams for insurance purposes, for, you know, danger purposes.

Ken Perry: 00:24:50

It's just got really big over, I mean, certainly over the last, last year.

Ken Perry: 00:24:56

So, um, yeah, I, they kinda answer your question.

Ken Perry: 00:24:59

It's, you know, investing in it, training courses of more

Ken Perry: 00:25:04

mini safety training courses.

Ken Perry: 00:25:06

It helps quite a lot.

Ken Perry: 00:25:07

I mean, there's, you know, there are people out there that have kind of

Ken Perry: 00:25:10

like myself, got a lucky break and, and, and got in with the new thing.

Ken Perry: 00:25:14

Um, but you know, that's that.

Ken Perry: 00:25:17

That's just luck really?

Ken Perry: 00:25:18

Isn't it?

Ken Perry: 00:25:20

yeah.

Phelim Rowe: 00:25:21

So, so, so Ken, I think it'd be, it'd be great for us and, and

Phelim Rowe: 00:25:24

especially our listeners to, to, to look at a day in the life of a protector in a

Phelim Rowe: 00:25:29

media environment and, and, and the way in which they interact with with journalists.

Phelim Rowe: 00:25:35

Cause it, it, you know, it, it has been possible in, in other podcasts to talk

Phelim Rowe: 00:25:39

about when to say no, Or yes, but I know that was a tricky, that was a tricky

Phelim Rowe: 00:25:44

thing to say to a, to, to an executive.

Phelim Rowe: 00:25:47

But as, as John said, and as you said, you know, running towards danger, um,

Phelim Rowe: 00:25:50

can you, can you paint a picture of how that plays out in a, in a day in

Phelim Rowe: 00:25:54

the life of a, of a media protector?

Ken Perry: 00:25:57

Yeah.

Ken Perry: 00:25:57

I mean, that's, um, you know, if you think it's hard trying to say an executive, no.

Ken Perry: 00:26:02

I mean, you wanna check out journalists , you know, you're going

Ken Perry: 00:26:06

straight into think of the action.

Ken Perry: 00:26:07

So, you know, a, a typical day would.

Ken Perry: 00:26:11

The day before, um, the, the, the safety advisor would write a risk assessment.

Ken Perry: 00:26:16

So you'd speak to the correspondent, get a flavor of where they're

Ken Perry: 00:26:19

gonna do what they're, what, what, what they're there're to achieve.

Ken Perry: 00:26:22

And, you know, we, we, where safety advisors are not interested, what

Ken Perry: 00:26:27

they're at in the editorial S of life.

Ken Perry: 00:26:29

We're just interested in getting them where they need the goals and as safe as.

Ken Perry: 00:26:33

So the risk assessment would be, would be written, um, that would

Ken Perry: 00:26:38

be sent in the night before, or sometimes, you know, a half an

Ken Perry: 00:26:42

hour before you, you, you move off.

Ken Perry: 00:26:44

It just depends on the story that would be refuted, then reviewed.

Ken Perry: 00:26:47

And then you'd set off on that, on that particular task.

Ken Perry: 00:26:50

On that particular task, you know, the safety advisor he's check navigating

Ken Perry: 00:26:54

to towards where they need to get to, uh, checking the wires, so to

Ken Perry: 00:26:58

speak social media, speaking to other consultants on the grounds and getting

Ken Perry: 00:27:02

the flavor of what's happening in that area, where they're gonna go to.

Ken Perry: 00:27:06

So that's, that's usually important and, and back feeding that to

Ken Perry: 00:27:09

the, to the correspondence and the producer, um, and just, you know,

Ken Perry: 00:27:14

move towards that area, get to the area, get it set up, assess the situ.

Ken Perry: 00:27:19

um, check out what the situational awareness is huge part of, of, of,

Ken Perry: 00:27:23

of that, as well as, uh, speaking to the, the, the local driver, the local

Ken Perry: 00:27:27

fixer, getting their perspective, um, and you know, basically getting out

Ken Perry: 00:27:33

there and trying to do the job, speak to the cameraman as the cameraman, want

Ken Perry: 00:27:36

you to carry some sort of equipment with them, no spare batteries,

Ken Perry: 00:27:40

tripod, whatever that may be, and then dealing with things like checkpoints,

Ken Perry: 00:27:44

you know, and it's all very much.

Ken Perry: 00:27:46

Then you go into like, You know, the military style kind of action

Ken Perry: 00:27:49

on, you know, that type of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:27:51

Um, get out there and get the story.

Ken Perry: 00:27:53

And usually, you know, I've found when the teams are going out on a job, they

Ken Perry: 00:27:59

kinda like to relax a little bit because once they're finished that shoot and

Ken Perry: 00:28:03

they've got that, um, the material that they want, as soon as they get in that

Ken Perry: 00:28:07

vehicle, or they're coming back to the base location, these guys just work at a

Ken Perry: 00:28:11

pace at a hundred miles an hour because they have to put that package together so

Ken Perry: 00:28:15

that, you know, these guys are coming on a huge amount of stress and anything, um,

Ken Perry: 00:28:20

you can do to make their life a little bit easier and a little bit smooth.

Ken Perry: 00:28:23

Um, really does go a long way, which is why, you know, from the beginning,

Ken Perry: 00:28:27

when I teach the courses to tell, you know, the guys and the girls just take

Ken Perry: 00:28:30

that kind of post protection, head off a little bit and understands the function

Ken Perry: 00:28:35

of what each person does in the team.

Ken Perry: 00:28:37

The producer has a certain, um, you know, um, function, the cameraman,

Ken Perry: 00:28:42

obviously in and the correspondent.

Ken Perry: 00:28:44

And you can help them out in a little way, uh, in your own way,

Ken Perry: 00:28:47

which, which really goes down well and helps the team achieve areas.

Phelim Rowe: 00:28:52

And, and, and in trying to, you know, be, be a fixer, be, be

Phelim Rowe: 00:28:56

an enabler, you know, obviously that, that that's got innate business value

Phelim Rowe: 00:28:59

and, and they can definitely see, uh, the value in, in, in what you are doing.

Phelim Rowe: 00:29:03

But yeah, on the other side, do you ever find that there's a temptation

Phelim Rowe: 00:29:10

to stop them being in harm's way or being collateral damage?

Phelim Rowe: 00:29:15

Now I'm beating around the Bush a little bit because in January, Of a given

Phelim Rowe: 00:29:21

year, there was an incident where some journalists were targeted by actors

Phelim Rowe: 00:29:27

who were, you know, public sector.

Phelim Rowe: 00:29:30

And that's an issue because obviously that's your client and they're in

Phelim Rowe: 00:29:35

harm's way and they're potentially in collateral collateral damage territory.

Phelim Rowe: 00:29:40

And is that somewhere where you step in and say right?

Phelim Rowe: 00:29:44

Actually,

Ken Perry: 00:29:45

no.

Ken Perry: 00:29:47

Yeah, of course.

Ken Perry: 00:29:48

Um, I mean, I've.

Ken Perry: 00:29:50

Many times throughout my, my career where you have to step in, but you know,

Ken Perry: 00:29:54

before you do that, and you do say, no, you've really gotta do your homework and

Ken Perry: 00:29:57

explain to these guys why you're saying no, you know, putting the, you know, that

Ken Perry: 00:30:02

it's, you know, it's operation certain desk as you go down a certain road to

Ken Perry: 00:30:05

get a certain, you know, piece of piece of footage or, or whatever it may be.

Ken Perry: 00:30:10

Um, and, and in my experience, you know, it comes to a point where

Ken Perry: 00:30:14

you do explain it and you explain the risks and highlight the risks.

Ken Perry: 00:30:17

Um, And, and still they want to go, well, you know, it gets to a point, well, we

Ken Perry: 00:30:22

have to look at your own self-preservation and think, okay, well, you know, if we,

Ken Perry: 00:30:26

we go to achieve, you know, you try to achieve what you're trying to do this way,

Ken Perry: 00:30:30

you know, we're certainly gonna, you know, get into the, um, get in the territory

Ken Perry: 00:30:34

of either being injured or being killed.

Ken Perry: 00:30:36

So, you know, um, if.

Ken Perry: 00:30:39

Certainly I've had it in occasions where I've just thought

Ken Perry: 00:30:41

that's, that's too much for me.

Ken Perry: 00:30:43

And I'll politely say, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not willing to take that risk.

Ken Perry: 00:30:47

And you know, you don't wanna become, become the story.

Ken Perry: 00:30:50

You know, you wanna get the story, not become the story mm-hmm um, and every

Ken Perry: 00:30:54

time I've laid that out and, and lay down, you know, my, my reasons for, for

Ken Perry: 00:30:59

that decision, you know, 99% of the time.

Ken Perry: 00:31:02

You know, they, that the journalists will listen to that.

Jon Moss: 00:31:06

Ah, I love that answer there, Ken.

Jon Moss: 00:31:08

I mean, it takes me back to my time working in hostile environments,

Jon Moss: 00:31:13

particularly thinking about Afghanistan here, running a security team, and you're

Jon Moss: 00:31:18

working with effectively civilians, you know, who are coming across and working

Jon Moss: 00:31:24

in a war zone, still trying to do a job.

Jon Moss: 00:31:29

I, I, I come up against a lot of, uh, friction and pushback in, in that role.

Jon Moss: 00:31:36

And I also observed how some of my peers were going about this job.

Jon Moss: 00:31:41

And, and a lot of them, especially those who were, uh, you know,

Jon Moss: 00:31:44

fresh outta the military, had this idea that you could simply say no.

Jon Moss: 00:31:50

And the authority of your position.

Jon Moss: 00:31:53

meant that that was it.

Jon Moss: 00:31:54

Conversation closed.

Jon Moss: 00:31:56

That's it done?

Jon Moss: 00:31:57

I said, no, you're not going out.

Jon Moss: 00:31:59

And that's it.

Jon Moss: 00:32:00

End of story.

Jon Moss: 00:32:00

and I see these people.

Jon Moss: 00:32:02

Not, uh, having the kind of longevity in the position that maybe they assumed they

Jon Moss: 00:32:08

would have when they first started work.

Jon Moss: 00:32:10

And, and I think, you know, that really speaks to that point

Jon Moss: 00:32:13

of not only, you know, yeah.

Jon Moss: 00:32:16

You've, you've gotta do your assessments.

Jon Moss: 00:32:17

You've gotta understand the risk, but you also need to be able

Jon Moss: 00:32:21

to communicate the reason why.

Jon Moss: 00:32:23

So you need to do your research and you need to be able to communicate that.

Jon Moss: 00:32:28

And then.

Jon Moss: 00:32:29

you have to have your ego in check to be able to get, uh, contrasting

Jon Moss: 00:32:35

opinion back and be able to handle that.

Jon Moss: 00:32:37

And, you know, I, I think that's something that, uh, everyone could do well to learn.

Jon Moss: 00:32:44

As early in their journey as possible.

Jon Moss: 00:32:46

It's it, that's a fantastic point.

Ken Perry: 00:32:48

No, absolutely.

Ken Perry: 00:32:49

John, um, I mean, I can draw it back to 2014.

Ken Perry: 00:32:52

I was in Gaza with, um, you know, a news network, major news network

Ken Perry: 00:32:57

had never been in Gaza before.

Ken Perry: 00:32:59

And the correspondent that I was working with had a huge amount of experience,

Ken Perry: 00:33:03

like 20 years experience of being in Gaza.

Ken Perry: 00:33:06

Um, and you.

Ken Perry: 00:33:08

It, it, you know, you'd mentioned about ego.

Ken Perry: 00:33:11

Um, that's certainly one thing you can't carry into, into working

Ken Perry: 00:33:14

with journalists, bringing it, you know, a kinda ego with you.

Ken Perry: 00:33:17

Cause you're dealing with, um, you're dealing with people who have been.

Ken Perry: 00:33:21

You know, working in hostile environments for, you know, 30, 40 years.

Ken Perry: 00:33:25

And in some cases, you know, that I've some real senior

Ken Perry: 00:33:28

journalists that I've worked for.

Ken Perry: 00:33:30

And certainly drawn back to my time in Gaza.

Ken Perry: 00:33:32

You know, I was going, I was, I was asking the correspondent a lot of security

Ken Perry: 00:33:36

questions about Gaza and actually taking advice off him and learned a hell of a lot

Ken Perry: 00:33:42

about the people, the ground, you know, the, the area that we were operating in.

Ken Perry: 00:33:47

Um, you know, if you walk down some sort of Eagle it's.

Ken Perry: 00:33:50

Yeah, you're, we're done for, you know, um, but you know, they're

Ken Perry: 00:33:54

just on this conversation, there is, there is a chain of command, so to

Ken Perry: 00:33:58

speak within the networks as well.

Ken Perry: 00:33:59

You know, most the networks they have, what we call the desk or, um, in American

Ken Perry: 00:34:05

terms, they call the bridge in some cases.

Ken Perry: 00:34:07

And that really is what, what the foreign desk.

Ken Perry: 00:34:10

um, and the reporting that's for us to understand that's like the

Ken Perry: 00:34:14

option in the military terms.

Ken Perry: 00:34:16

So every time the journalists move, usually it's the producer.

Ken Perry: 00:34:20

They have to feed back to the desk.

Ken Perry: 00:34:22

Of where they're going and what they're going to do.

Ken Perry: 00:34:25

Um, and if you come into situation where, you know, they want to go,

Ken Perry: 00:34:28

but you don't think it's right, you can always refer back to the desk and

Ken Perry: 00:34:32

explain to the desk or cause it happens.

Ken Perry: 00:34:34

You know, it's a fact of life, you get a clash of personalities, you get

Ken Perry: 00:34:37

correspondence that particularly don't want, you know, they, sometimes they

Ken Perry: 00:34:40

see having media security with them as a bit of a block to what they want to do.

Ken Perry: 00:34:46

So, you know, that's, you've gotta build a relationship up there cuz

Ken Perry: 00:34:49

you're going against the tide.

Ken Perry: 00:34:50

Some in some cases.

Ken Perry: 00:34:52

Where they just see you there as the, to stop them from what they're doing.

Ken Perry: 00:34:55

And so, so building up, um, relationships again is, is really important and managing

Ken Perry: 00:35:01

personalities, but, um, yeah, you know, talking about going back to the desk,

Ken Perry: 00:35:05

which have done a lot of times and, and explains, you know, I don't think it's

Ken Perry: 00:35:09

a good reason we go here cause of, you know, ABC, you know, the desk can kinda

Ken Perry: 00:35:13

handle it and interject and say, well, okay, we don't want you to do that story

Ken Perry: 00:35:17

today or whatever it may be, you know?

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:21

And so with that, in that, in that context, um, and, and you mentioned

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:25

before, you know, gotta be prepared, gotta be able to do their research.

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:28

Um, of course there'll be all sorts of wonderful intelligence feeds

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:32

that you can buy and subscribe to.

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:34

And, uh, and, and, uh, you know, uh, protest intelligence

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:38

and, and this and that, but.

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:40

Is it, is it really just to get started?

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:42

Do, would you say to them get an economist subscription or, uh, buy

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:47

the odd Ft or, or something like that?

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:48

Is, is it as simple as that to get them going with current affairs

Phelim Rowe: 00:35:52

or, or is there something more specialized they should be looking at?

Ken Perry: 00:35:56

I that's a great question.

Ken Perry: 00:35:57

I mean, we, we, you know, it's.

Ken Perry: 00:35:59

There's different news out there, which some of them not gonna gonna, gonna

Ken Perry: 00:36:03

mention, which are worth be watching better than others, you know, staying

Ken Perry: 00:36:07

up, you know what I do as, as that, you know, I'm not, I don't have to say Glu to

Ken Perry: 00:36:11

the news all day there certain channels that I'll watch and I'll rise around.

Ken Perry: 00:36:16

Um, um, And see what's, what's potentially happening in the words.

Ken Perry: 00:36:20

I mean, Twitter, you can't really get anything better than if

Ken Perry: 00:36:23

subscriptions did look on Twitter and what's going on in the words.

Ken Perry: 00:36:27

And if I see, you know, something potentially kind of bubbling somewhere,

Ken Perry: 00:36:31

then I'll focus in on that area a little bit more, um, and try and find

Ken Perry: 00:36:35

out what, you know, what's going on, what the threat is, that type of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:36:39

So if you do get that call, um, to go anywhere.

Ken Perry: 00:36:43

Half the battles, knowing what's, what's actually going on in, in that country.

Ken Perry: 00:36:47

You know, just getting yourself sort of started a little bit.

Ken Perry: 00:36:50

Um, I think, I think, you know, how do you get on this?

Ken Perry: 00:36:55

The, the biggest opportunity I think in recent times is certainly what's

Ken Perry: 00:36:59

going on in Ukraine right now.

Ken Perry: 00:37:01

Um, where's a, a lot of people that have been deployed in Ukraine that

Ken Perry: 00:37:04

have never worked in the, in the media security industry before.

Ken Perry: 00:37:08

um, and you know, constantly keeping up the date on, you

Ken Perry: 00:37:11

know, what's going on with earth.

Ken Perry: 00:37:12

That's, it's, it's, it's huge.

Ken Perry: 00:37:14

They, they get your knowledge of, of that place, you know?

Phelim Rowe: 00:37:18

And, and on top of the knowledge of that place, I suppose, the

Phelim Rowe: 00:37:21

ability to get there, maybe not, not, Ukraine's probably not gonna apply there.

Phelim Rowe: 00:37:25

Um, but.

Phelim Rowe: 00:37:27

Should, should they take the preemptive step of going, you know what, this

Phelim Rowe: 00:37:30

is probably an area of, lots of work.

Phelim Rowe: 00:37:33

I'm gonna get myself a visa, um, or a multiry visa or, or something like that.

Phelim Rowe: 00:37:37

Or is, or is this all done very much on the hoof sorted out by

Phelim Rowe: 00:37:40

your, your, your, your employer, um, the agency, um, or, or, or is it

Phelim Rowe: 00:37:45

something that a protector could go?

Phelim Rowe: 00:37:46

Do you know what, that, that's an opportunity?

Ken Perry: 00:37:49

Uh, you just meant you just raised a really good point there.

Ken Perry: 00:37:53

Um, you know, Getting a visa, for instance, mul visa or whatever, if

Ken Perry: 00:37:57

you've got that ability to do so.

Ken Perry: 00:37:59

Um, for, for some countries, Know, if you contact many of the different,

Ken Perry: 00:38:04

um, companies that hire guys to go out and do media security, you know, if

Ken Perry: 00:38:08

you phone 'em up, you tell me you've got, you've got a visa in place.

Ken Perry: 00:38:11

You've got like, let's say you need inoculation to go.

Ken Perry: 00:38:14

And certain companies now you've got that in place, your, your meds, um, skills

Ken Perry: 00:38:19

and your certificates are up the date.

Ken Perry: 00:38:21

I mean, those guys that will just, that will get you job straight away.

Ken Perry: 00:38:24

You know, they'll, um, rather than wait for somebody to get a visa and I I've done

Ken Perry: 00:38:29

it in the past myself actually, you know, got myself visa up for certain companies

Ken Perry: 00:38:32

or had that visa already in the passport and the ability to move quite quickly.

Ken Perry: 00:38:38

I

Jon Moss: 00:38:38

take it.

Jon Moss: 00:38:38

There wasn't many anti-vaxxers, uh, working in media safety, then

Ken Perry: 00:38:44

no, no, it's, you know, you gotta compromise your morals if you

Ken Perry: 00:38:48

wanna, if you wanna work really, you know?

Ken Perry: 00:38:50

Um, and I, you know, when COVID came around, certainly said that to a lot of

Ken Perry: 00:38:54

guys, it's like, well, you know, whether you're on the vs or not, if you wanna

Ken Perry: 00:38:57

work, you gotta take that job, you know?

Ken Perry: 00:39:00

Cause that's.

Ken Perry: 00:39:01

That was not so much nice.

Ken Perry: 00:39:03

It's kind of Fe night a little bit, but, um, yeah, you know, that's

Ken Perry: 00:39:08

certainly that was a big requirement.

Ken Perry: 00:39:10

You have to be, you know, kind of double jobbed and booster

Ken Perry: 00:39:12

and all that kind of thing.

Ken Perry: 00:39:13

And if you weren't, they'd just go to the next person and take the next

Ken Perry: 00:39:16

person who's available, you know?

Ken Perry: 00:39:18

Yeah.

Jon Moss: 00:39:18

And, and to kind of perhaps end this off with how we started, which

Jon Moss: 00:39:23

is, uh, referencing your article in the latest edition of the circuit magazine.

Jon Moss: 00:39:28

In that article, you list some great points, uh, 12 points about how to

Jon Moss: 00:39:33

break into the industry and, you know, be, be successful and stay in it.

Jon Moss: 00:39:37

And the one that really catches my eye is, uh, the final point that you

Jon Moss: 00:39:40

made there, uh, have a sense of humor and knowing you as well as I do.

Jon Moss: 00:39:44

I know that's something that, uh, you wouldn't have struggled with

Jon Moss: 00:39:47

yourself, but have you got any tips, uh, for anyone else who's who's,

Jon Moss: 00:39:51

you know, coming into the industry.

Ken Perry: 00:39:55

Ah, I mean, you know, you're gonna watch, you gotta walk, you walk in

Ken Perry: 00:39:58

and there you're gonna, you're gonna walk.

Ken Perry: 00:40:00

If you've never worked in that, in this area of the industry before

Ken Perry: 00:40:04

you're gonna be, um, listener can be quite daunting for a lot of people.

Ken Perry: 00:40:07

They go in and work with, uh, you know, a big correspondent who's well known.

Ken Perry: 00:40:11

You've maybe seen them yourself on TV quite a lot, and now

Ken Perry: 00:40:14

you're working with them.

Ken Perry: 00:40:15

You gotta build that rapport.

Ken Perry: 00:40:16

And ultimately, you know, you've gotta give them advice if they, you know,

Ken Perry: 00:40:20

if it's needed, um, And, you know, breaking down the barriers, um, the,

Ken Perry: 00:40:25

the social barriers within the team, um, and just knowing you're gonna be

Ken Perry: 00:40:28

working in a high tense environment and, and, and don't take things personally,

Ken Perry: 00:40:33

I've been screamed up by cameraman, by producers, by correspondence

Ken Perry: 00:40:37

and, and took it on the chin.

Ken Perry: 00:40:39

But, you know, Start them back later on for it.

Phelim Rowe: 00:40:45

you know, love it.

Phelim Rowe: 00:40:47

Well, well, absolutely.

Phelim Rowe: 00:40:48

You've, you've painted a great picture.

Phelim Rowe: 00:40:49

I'm I'm sure there'll be people who have not considered it before and are

Phelim Rowe: 00:40:53

now very much considering it, uh, as well as people have, you know, they need

Phelim Rowe: 00:40:58

your guidance, they need a course such as yours to, to sort of get in there.

Phelim Rowe: 00:41:02

Um, but, uh, but yeah.

Phelim Rowe: 00:41:04

How, how, how could people get in touch with you?

Phelim Rowe: 00:41:06

Uh, as, uh, as, as the weeks and months go.

Phelim Rowe: 00:41:09

Um,

Ken Perry: 00:41:11

on the website, really, we, uh, we regularly post, um, dates of

Ken Perry: 00:41:15

courses on, on our website and, you know, they're open to everybody and anybody

Ken Perry: 00:41:20

and have designed the course in such a way that we cover both aspects of it.

Ken Perry: 00:41:24

So we'll cover the whole kind of back watch, um, being able to work

Ken Perry: 00:41:28

in rats as demonstrations and, and, you know, covering the events

Ken Perry: 00:41:31

that's going on in London now.

Ken Perry: 00:41:33

And.

Ken Perry: 00:41:34

So to the other end of planning, like a, you know, a frontline operate daily

Ken Perry: 00:41:38

operation in, in, in the like Ukraine.

Ken Perry: 00:41:41

Um, yeah, but we're running a course, I think on the 26th, 27th

Ken Perry: 00:41:46

this month, um, What we also do.

Ken Perry: 00:41:50

We also train freelance journalists as well.

Ken Perry: 00:41:52

And that's a great way for us to keep our kind of currency up of,

Ken Perry: 00:41:56

um, of, of training, you know, guys and guard that work in media with

Ken Perry: 00:42:01

media as a media CFD advisor as well.

Ken Perry: 00:42:04

Fantastic.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:05

Well, um, you know, thank you very much for coming on.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:08

Thank you for running the article.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:09

Um, I, I, I, I love this dynamic and I, and I, and I think

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:13

there's, there's more to explore.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:14

There's more to explore.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:15

Isn't.

Jon Moss: 00:42:16

Yeah, for sure.

Jon Moss: 00:42:17

It's, it's been so good.

Jon Moss: 00:42:19

You know, we could have kept on going easily for another hour.

Jon Moss: 00:42:22

Maybe we'll have to get Ken back.

Jon Moss: 00:42:24

If he's got time.

Jon Moss: 00:42:25

He's a busy guy.

Ken Perry: 00:42:26

Yeah.

Ken Perry: 00:42:27

Pleasure being here.

Ken Perry: 00:42:28

Thank you so much for having me and, uh, yeah.

Ken Perry: 00:42:30

Look forward to the next time.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:32

Well, thanks very much.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:33

And this has been a fantastic look at media protection and journalist safety.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:38

So, uh, from John and myself, thank you very much.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:41

Uh, Ken, this has been another fantastic edition of these

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:44

circuit magazine podcasts.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:55

Thank you very much to Ken Perry, founder of cos end consultancy.

Phelim Rowe: 00:42:59

Great friend of the magazine, the association.

Phelim Rowe: 00:43:02

And, you know what, I think this is a new pivot for the protector, because

Phelim Rowe: 00:43:06

as we said at the beginning, this is exactly the opposite direction

Phelim Rowe: 00:43:10

you're going towards danger.

Phelim Rowe: 00:43:11

You're trying to not ever say no to media and journalists.

Phelim Rowe: 00:43:16

And, and I wonder if this is peaked a few people's interests,

Phelim Rowe: 00:43:19

John, what, what do you think?

Jon Moss: 00:43:20

Yeah, absolutely.

Jon Moss: 00:43:21

I mean, you know, we, this, this is one of those jobs that kind of

Jon Moss: 00:43:26

falls into that sexy role, isn't it?

Jon Moss: 00:43:28

Or at.

Jon Moss: 00:43:29

It isn't the imagination.

Jon Moss: 00:43:30

I think, uh, Ken might have dispelled a little bit of that

Jon Moss: 00:43:34

with stories of making cups of tea for camera crew and, and so on.

Jon Moss: 00:43:38

But, you know, it's great to get a real picture of what it's like to be

Jon Moss: 00:43:43

on the ground and you know, it, it, it's absolutely essential for anybody

Jon Moss: 00:43:48

thinking about going into this line of work that you need to understand.

Jon Moss: 00:43:53

The, uh, you know, the, the kind of bricks and mortar of it, you need to be

Jon Moss: 00:43:57

aware that you're gonna have to leave your ego at the door and be prepared

Jon Moss: 00:44:02

to muck in and, and be a part of a team

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:05

and also be, be prepared to do a lot of current affairs reading.

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:10

Maybe sometimes with no specific goal in mind, maybe it's.

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:13

I mean, he, he, he, he, he didn't want to, uh, send us down onto any particular

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:18

publication, but I, I think a wide range of reading around the world will current

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:22

affairs, uh, given that at any one stage, one of those, uh, stories will develop.

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:28

And then that's you getting in there?

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:30

So, so, so that's a bit of a challenge, isn't it?

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:32

Cuz if I was working for a fortune 500 company, I'd do my research.

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:36

I'd understand what they do, but, but, but this is, this is a lot broader.

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:40

Um, how, how, how beyond reading the newspaper, do you think we

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:44

can sort of solve that John?

Phelim Rowe: 00:44:45

Well, I've got an

Jon Moss: 00:44:46

easy answer.

Jon Moss: 00:44:47

For that.

Jon Moss: 00:44:47

And it does feel like you've set me up for this, but you know, the

Jon Moss: 00:44:51

circuit magazine and, and, uh, through the associations, you know,

Jon Moss: 00:44:55

we, we provide, uh, a daily brief.

Jon Moss: 00:44:57

So we are collating news from all over the world.

Jon Moss: 00:45:00

This is not our interpretation of it.

Jon Moss: 00:45:03

We're, we're just collecting all of the main headlines.

Jon Moss: 00:45:06

What's going on and, and a lot of it it's, so it's not news about bodyguards

Jon Moss: 00:45:11

or what's happening in the world of close protection or anything like that

Jon Moss: 00:45:14

necessarily, but it is the current affairs what's going on around the world.

Jon Moss: 00:45:19

The things that might be impacting our principles, our clients,

Jon Moss: 00:45:23

you know, ourselves and, you know, just so that we've got a

Jon Moss: 00:45:27

general awareness at all times.

Jon Moss: 00:45:29

And then, you know, we build upon that with the weekly newsletter and we have a

Jon Moss: 00:45:34

really in depth feature in that provided by our partners at Strat for which

Jon Moss: 00:45:40

is a fantastic service in, in that, that, you know, that's another service

Jon Moss: 00:45:44

that if you want to pay money for.

Jon Moss: 00:45:46

That's a fantastic one.

Jon Moss: 00:45:47

And then on top of that, we also then put out the magazine and of course the

Jon Moss: 00:45:52

magazine, you know, has a whole section dedicated to, uh, global situation report.

Jon Moss: 00:45:58

So again, you know, it's wherever, whatever your trusted source is, you know,

Jon Moss: 00:46:03

find that, make sure it's comprehensive, you know, and covers the whole spectrum.

Jon Moss: 00:46:07

Because as we found out there with Ken, you know, you never

Jon Moss: 00:46:10

know where you're going to be.

Jon Moss: 00:46:11

And, and I think Ken said, Know, he has his guys, a 30 minutes, uh,

Jon Moss: 00:46:16

notice to move, which is incredible.

Jon Moss: 00:46:18

Especially if you don't know where you're going to be moving to, you know, so you

Jon Moss: 00:46:22

have to be able to get up to speed very fast and, you know, become an asset

Jon Moss: 00:46:28

to those guys and goals on the ground.

Jon Moss: 00:46:30

They're relying on you.

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:31

And, and that asset, that facilitator that's,

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:35

that's an interesting role.

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:36

Cause cause there are a lot of protectors that you.

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:39

You know, dabbling concierge services and, uh, you know,

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:42

helping, helping out in other ways.

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:44

But this seems the all rounder position, but also one of the most challenging one.

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:49

You don't know where the threat's coming from?

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:51

Who, who are they?

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:52

They're not typical.

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:52

They're not this.

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:53

They're not that they're, they're not public private.

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:55

They they're they're everything and nothing.

Phelim Rowe: 00:46:57

It's, it's, it's a very dynamic situation which hopefully our listeners will

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:01

warm to and, uh, and reach out to Kim.

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:04

Cuz of course he, he does run, uh, his, uh, very, you know, respected court and.

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:09

And I think that's a good, that's a good entry point, um,

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:12

into, into, into that world.

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:15

Um, but you mentioned the magazine and you mentioned, uh, all of our other work and,

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:18

and so it would be remiss me not to once again, invite people, uh, next week, uh,

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:24

on the afternoon of the 27th of September.

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:27

They're very welcome to come to our circuit magazine meetup in the keep of

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:32

Brook green pub behind Kensington Olympia.

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:35

Uh, why are we doing it there?

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:36

And then, because that is of course, uh, right next to the

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:39

international security expo, uh, where, uh, we are a media partner

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:43

aren't we, uh, with the association.

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:45

Um, so, so, so absolutely they should come stop by I'm there from 4:00 PM

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:51

onwards on the 27th of September.

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:55

But what else do we have coming up?

Phelim Rowe: 00:47:57

Because, you know, we, we, we've just launched, uh, the magazine,

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:00

not, uh, just a few weeks ago.

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:02

Um, what, uh, what's next on the horizon.

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:04

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:04

So

Jon Moss: 00:48:04

this is a busy time when we're, uh, you know, putting

Jon Moss: 00:48:08

together the next issue when we're trying to, you know, build.

Jon Moss: 00:48:11

Uh, a theme and a feel and obviously looking out for good quality articles.

Jon Moss: 00:48:18

So, you know, if you're interested, if there's something burning on your mind,

Jon Moss: 00:48:21

if you think there's something we haven't covered recently in the magazine, then

Jon Moss: 00:48:26

either let us know your thoughts, what you want to hear more of, or indeed

Jon Moss: 00:48:30

write it yourself and send it into us.

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:33

Wonderful and we'll, and we'll help, you know, you could

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:35

be first time writer will help, um, or you could be long time,

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:38

uh, long term contributor as well.

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:41

Um, so, so, so very much looking forward to that, um, date for diary.

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:46

Is it too early for me to do an extra date for diary for January

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:49

is January too far away or is it fast coming around the corner?

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:51

You've gone there now.

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:53

all right.

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:54

All right.

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:55

26th of January, the eighth annual executive security closed

Phelim Rowe: 00:48:58

protection technology forum in London, grand corner rooms.

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:01

Please add that to your dates for diary.

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:03

It does not clash with the world economic forum.

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:06

I'm sure of that.

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:07

And it is very much, uh, you know, an event, uh, on the calendar to include.

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:13

So that's 26th of January.

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:14

However that doesn't preclude you coming to see us next week on the 27th of

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:19

September at the keeper Brook green green.

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:21

So thank you very much to Ken.

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:24

CEO and founder of Cosan consultancy for talking about this crucial and

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:28

fascinating media safety and security protection topic, uh, from John Moss and

Phelim Rowe: 00:49:33

myself, this has been another fantastic edition of the circuit magazine podcast.

Ken Perry: 00:49:43

You have.

Ken Perry: 00:49:44

Listening to the circuit magazine podcast, be sure to subscribe and